Wolf: Olivier has posted a plausible interpretation of the marriage entry 144: the bride was not a Cathrin Sidler but (corrected) a Cathrin Huber … so Jacob Kleiner is not Cathrin Sidler's husband! Instead "your" Cathrin Sidler got married to Heini Huber (entry 145) if we stick to the date.
Heinrich Huber Jr. married in 1661 to Catharina Sidler
Heinrich Huber Jr, Sohn des Heinrich Sr.
oo Mettmenstetten 16.10.1661 (siehe auch bei Sidler)
Cathrin Sidler [derzeit nicht geklärt, ob ≈ Ottenbach 31.07.1631 oder ≈ Ottenbach 07.12.1634], † Urdorf 16.01.1692
Kinder: (Anna und Hans noch in Mettmenstetten getauft) (Anna and Hans baptized in Mettmenstetten)
Anna, 16-jährig in 1678 (10.08.1662)
Hanß, 14-jährig in 1678 (14.02.1664)
Heinrich, 12-jährig in 1678
Catharindli, 3-jährig in 1678
Magdalendli, ½-jährig in 1678
Wolf:
10 Januarij [1655]
Hans Jacob Huber von Obermettmenstetten
Cleve (= Clephe = Cleophea) Vrmin von Knonauw
Just to make sure: this record is from Mettmenstetten.
Heinrich Huber Jr. married in 1661 to Catharina Sidler
Heinrich Huber Jr, Sohn des Heinrich Sr.
oo Mettmenstetten 16.10.1661 (siehe auch bei Sidler)
Cathrin Sidler [derzeit nicht geklärt, ob ≈ Ottenbach 31.07.1631 oder ≈ Ottenbach 07.12.1634], † Urdorf 16.01.1692
Kinder: (Anna und Hans noch in Mettmenstetten getauft) (Anna and Hans baptized in Mettmenstetten)
Anna, 16-jährig in 1678 (10.08.1662)
Hanß, 14-jährig in 1678 (14.02.1664)
Heinrich, 12-jährig in 1678
Catharindli, 3-jährig in 1678
Magdalendli, ½-jährig in 1678
Heinrich's Father:
Source: Population register Urdorf-Dietikon 1678
Catalogus of the churches and parishioners of OberUrdorf.
Heinrich Huber Sr., Freiamtsvogt Heinrich Huber's son, ensign(?) [named as father at the marriage of his son Heinrich] oo Mettenstetten 17.11.1625
Anna Oberdorfer, daughter of Jakob Oberdorfer von Loo
Children (possibly married daughters are not named):
Hanß, in the Palatinate, aged 25 in 1678, i.e. * around 1653 [28 years after the parents' marriage]
Sons in the marriage:
Hans Jagli Huber oo 1655 Cleophea Urmi
Heinrich Huber Jr. oo 1661 Catharina Sydlerin
According to the population register of 1671, the families moved from Mettmenstetten in 1665
Heinrich Huber Jr's son:
Hans Jakob Huber oo 1655 Cleophea Urmi
Hans Jakob Huber, son of Heinrich, “he moved to Windisch in this 1678th year” (moved to Windisch in 1678).
oo Mettmenstetten 10.01.1655
Cleophea (“Cleve”) Urmi, ≈ Knonau 04.01.1629 as daughter of Hans Konrad Urmi and Agnes Hegetschweiler [§]
Children: (all baptized in Mettmenstetten)
1. Cathrina (only named in 1671, no age: possibly oo 02.02.1678) [≈ 29.11.1657]
2. Adelheit, 18-year-old in 1678, thus * born around 1660 [≈ 25.11.1660]
3. Hanß, 16-year-old in 1678, i.e. * born around 1662 [≈ 09.03.1662]
In 1665 the family moves (with the parents and the brother's family) to Ober-Urdorf - the others also stay there. Hans Jakob and Cleophea move on to Windisch in 1678.
[In the population registers 1671 and 1678 of Urdorf-Dietikon, the wife or mother is listed as Cleophea Lienckhin or Lenckin - but this is incorrect. The baptismal entries for all 3 children mentioned were found in Mettmenstetten - here the mother's name is Cleve Urmin. This is also the name in the Mettmenstetten 1655 marriage register (a marriage entry with a Cleophea Lenck is not found in the Zurich marriage database). On 04.01.1629 she was baptized in Mettmenstetten as the daughter of Hans Kunrad Urmi and Agnes Heggentschwillerin (Hegetschweiler) with the name Clephe.
Documents related to Heinrich Huber:
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| Mettmenstetten-Ehe-1655-Huber&Urmi-f008014293-p18l-Detail |
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| Mettmenstetten-Tauf-1657-Huber-f0080143293-95l-Cathrina |
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| Mettmenstetten-Tauf-1660-Huber-f008014293-p97l-Adelheit |
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| Mettmenstetten-Tauf-1662-Huber-f008014293-p98l-Hans |
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| Knonau-Tauf-1629-f008014288-p86-Urmi-HD-Cleophea |
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| 1655 Marriage Hans Jakob Huber Cleophea Urmi from Knonau marriage 10 January Film 008014293 Page 18 |
10 Januarij [1655]
Hans Jacob Huber von Obermettmenstetten
Cleve (= Clephe = Cleophea) Vrmin von Knonauw
Just to make sure: this record is from Mettmenstetten.
Yes.
@Olivier: so underlined, since it was corrected, but wrong at first. Sounds very plausible.
Wolf: The wife we are looking for, Katharina, is the daughter of Jakob Sidler and Vronegg Urmi. Billeter married her to Jakob Kleiner - but if his bride Katharina's real name was Huber, the only remaining groom from 16.10.1661 is Heini Huber, son of Ensign Huber, whose first name is unfortunately not given. The Mettmenstetten population register could possibly provide some clarity.
Post by Wolf » Thu 5. Sep 2024, 14:55
Hans Jakob Huber, Sohn des Heinrich, "dieser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr gen Windisch zogen" (1678 nach Windisch verzogen). oo Mettmenstetten 10.01.1655Cleophea ("Cleve") Urmi, ≈ Knonau 04.01.1629 als Tochter des Hans Konrad Urmi und der Agnes Hegetschweiler [§]
Kinder: (alle in Mettmenstetten getauft)
Cathrina (nur 1671 genannt, ohne Alter: evtl. oo 02.02.1678) [≈ 29.11.1657]
Adelheit, 18-jährig in 1678, also * um 1660 geboren [≈ 25.11.1660]
Hanß, 16-jährig in 1678, also * um 1662 geboren [≈ 09.03.1662]
1665 zieht die Familie (mit den Eltern und der Familie des Bruders) nach Ober-Urdorf - die Anderen bleiben auch dort. Hans Jakob und Cleophea ziehen 1678 nach Windisch weiter.
[§] In den Bevölkerungsverzeichnissen 1671 bzw. 1678 von Urdorf-Dietikon wird die Ehefrau bzw. Mutter mit Cleophea Lienckhin bzw. Lenckin geführt - dies ist jedoch falsch. Zu allen 3 genannten Kindern wurden die Taufeinträge in Mettmenstetten gefunden - hier heisst die Mutter Cleve Urmin. Das ist auch der Name im Ehebuch Mettmenstetten 1655 (einen Eheeintrag mit einer Cleophea Lenck findet sich nicht in der Zürcher Ehedatenbank). Am 04.01.1629 war sie in Mettmenstetten als Tochter des Hans Kunrad Urmi und der Agnes Heggentschwillerin (Hegetschweiler) auf den Namen Cleophea getauft worden.
Wolf:
We obviously have connections for Sidler between Ottenbach and Mettmenstetten. The connection to Urdorf might(!) be the husband: Huber is one of the most common names in German speaking regions – no surprise they also held pre-1800 citizenship in Urdorf.
Catalogus - 1 - Der Kirchen und Gemeinds-genoßen zu OberUrdorfCatalogue oft the parish and community members in Oberurdorf
II Heinrich Huber, Anna Oberdörfferin (https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/detail.aspx?ID=2026999)
Kinder:
25 Hanß, in der Pfalz (Palatinate)
Söhn in der Ehe (married sons):
a. Hanß Jagli Huber, Cleophea Lenckin (no corresponding marriage entry in EDB) (Jagli=Jakob)
Kinder:
18 Adelheit
16 Hanß (diser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr ... zogen (moved somewhere?)
b. Heinrich Huber, Catharina Sydlerin
Kinder:
16 Anna (bapt. 10.08.1662)
14 Hanß (bapt. 14.02.1664)
12 Heinrich
3 Cathrindli
½ Magdalendli
The first two names match with the baptisms above.
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| 1657 Catharina Huber baptism 29 Nov Hans Jakob Huber and Cleme Verni Mettmenstetten film 0080143293 page 95 |
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| 1660 Adelheit Huber baptism 25 Nov Hans Jakob and Clezer Vernin Mettmenstetten film 008014293 page 97 |
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| 1661 Marriage 16 Oct Jacob Kleiner and Katharina Sidler Mettmenstetten page 19 |
Wolf:
On 16 October 1661 3 weddings take place in Mettmenstetten ZH with family connections of the bride and groom:
143) Hanß Jacob Huber, Vogt Huber's blessed son / Barbara Sÿdlerin
144) Jacob Kleiner, Oslj (Oswald) Kleiner's ehl(icher) son / Cathrj Sÿdlerin [....?] Huberin, soror superioris
145) Heinj Huber, Fendrich Huber's ehl(icher) son / Cathrj Sÿdlerin (the suffix in is added to denote feminine.)
I am puzzled by entry 144. https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=2027249 the following is given:
Kleiner, Jakob, married to Huber, Verena
“Osli” (Oswald) Kleiner's son
Bailiff Huber's own daughter. Her brother Hans Jakob Huber marries on the same day.
If she had Huber as her maiden name (Vogt Huber's own daughter or “soror superioris*) - what does the ‘Cathrj Sÿdlerin’ in front of her name mean? Should it be crossed out instead of underlined, because of confusion with the following entry? Or was the bride called Cathrin Sidler with an unclear reference to Huber?)
Note: Jakob's father, Oswald was a Kirchenmeyer, (administrator of church farm property). His wife is Dorothea Funk. Married 26 Feb 1623, Mettmenstetten, ZH. He died 29 April 1666.
Note: Jakob's father, Oswald was a Kirchenmeyer, (administrator of church farm property). His wife is Dorothea Funk. Married 26 Feb 1623, Mettmenstetten, ZH. He died 29 April 1666.
Question: Or was the bride called Cathrin Sidler with an unclear reference to Huber?
Walter: Could that mean “verw[itwete] Huberin”?
Oliver: I would read “Cathri Sydlerin vere Huberin”, i.e. “Katharina Sidler, in truth Huber”. This indicates a subsequent correction of the name.
Wolf: @Walter: I had already thought of “widowed” - but didn't find a suitable marriage; doesn't have to rule it out (gap in the marriage register?) - but doesn't make it likely either.@Olivier: so underlined, since it was corrected, but wrong at first. Sounds very plausible.
Wolf: The wife we are looking for, Katharina, is the daughter of Jakob Sidler and Vronegg Urmi. Billeter married her to Jakob Kleiner - but if his bride Katharina's real name was Huber, the only remaining groom from 16.10.1661 is Heini Huber, son of Ensign Huber, whose first name is unfortunately not given. The Mettmenstetten population register could possibly provide some clarity.
Wolf: Olivier has posted a plausible interpretation of the marriage entry 144: the bride was not a Cathrin Sidler but (corrected) a Cathrin Huber … so Jacob Kleiner is not Cathrin Sidler's husband! Instead "your" Cathrin Sidler got married to Heini Huber (entry 145) if we stick to the date.
Wolf: Heinrich Huber 9SSX-ZKX and Katharina Sidler married 16 October 1661. The Aeugst am Albis have been searched and two children from this marriage were found as seen below. The Katharina Sidler on FS has her birth in 1634 not 1631, different parents etc. The FS entry also has the wrong father for Heinrich based on the translation of the marriage certificate above.Kent: FS has Katharina born 1634 and married 16 October 1661 and the couple have two children. They have Katharina and Heinrich bearing children in Aeugst am Albis. FS has no birth, or death for her husband Heinrich, just their marriage. Their second child Hans has a birth witness named Jacob Kleiner. BV's have been searched in Ottenbach and Mettmenstetten (1670) (lots of Kleiner names) and Aeugst am Albis. No Katharina.
Did Catharina Sidler marry Heinrich Huber?
@Walter: I had already thought of “widowed” - but didn't find a suitable marriage; doesn't have to rule it out (gap in the marriage register?) - but doesn't make it likely either.
@Olivier: so underlined, since it was corrected, but wrong at first. Sounds very plausible.
Wolf: The wife we are looking for, Katharina, is the daughter of Jakob Sidler and Vronegg Urmi. Billeter married her to Jakob Kleiner - but if his bride Katharina's real name was Huber, the only remaining groom from 16 October 1661 is Heini Huber, son of Ensign Huber, whose first name is unfortunately not given. The Mettmenstetten population register could possibly provide some clarity.
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| 1662 Hans Huber baptism 9 Mar 1662 Jakob Huber and Cleophea Lenk Mettmenstetten film 008014293 page 98 |
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| 1671 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis for Urdorf film 007765846 page 239 |
Wolf:
I have now summarized the problem on Geneal-Forum - with snippets of all relevant documents. Of Cleophea Urmi's baptism 1629.This is proving that the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis is wrong: Hans Jakob Huber's wife is Cleophea Urmi - not Lenk (or similar).
Hans Jakob Huber oo 1655 Cleophea UrmiI have now summarized the problem on Geneal-Forum - with snippets of all relevant documents. Of Cleophea Urmi's baptism 1629.This is proving that the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis is wrong: Hans Jakob Huber's wife is Cleophea Urmi - not Lenk (or similar).
Post by Wolf » Thu 5. Sep 2024, 14:55
Hans Jakob Huber, Sohn des Heinrich, "dieser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr gen Windisch zogen" (1678 nach Windisch verzogen). oo Mettmenstetten 10.01.1655Cleophea ("Cleve") Urmi, ≈ Knonau 04.01.1629 als Tochter des Hans Konrad Urmi und der Agnes Hegetschweiler [§]
Kinder: (alle in Mettmenstetten getauft)
Cathrina (nur 1671 genannt, ohne Alter: evtl. oo 02.02.1678) [≈ 29.11.1657]
Adelheit, 18-jährig in 1678, also * um 1660 geboren [≈ 25.11.1660]
Hanß, 16-jährig in 1678, also * um 1662 geboren [≈ 09.03.1662]
1665 zieht die Familie (mit den Eltern und der Familie des Bruders) nach Ober-Urdorf - die Anderen bleiben auch dort. Hans Jakob und Cleophea ziehen 1678 nach Windisch weiter.
[§] In den Bevölkerungsverzeichnissen 1671 bzw. 1678 von Urdorf-Dietikon wird die Ehefrau bzw. Mutter mit Cleophea Lienckhin bzw. Lenckin geführt - dies ist jedoch falsch. Zu allen 3 genannten Kindern wurden die Taufeinträge in Mettmenstetten gefunden - hier heisst die Mutter Cleve Urmin. Das ist auch der Name im Ehebuch Mettmenstetten 1655 (einen Eheeintrag mit einer Cleophea Lenck findet sich nicht in der Zürcher Ehedatenbank). Am 04.01.1629 war sie in Mettmenstetten als Tochter des Hans Kunrad Urmi und der Agnes Heggentschwillerin (Hegetschweiler) auf den Namen Cleophea getauft worden.
Wolf:
The sentence to the left states Seind auch zue Mettmenstädten getauft worden (have been baptised in Mettmenstetten) - applies to Anna and Hans (which we knew already). The statement, that they moved from Mettmenstetten to Urdorf in 1665 applies to all 3 families.
Wolf:
Jakob Urmi's wife: The first two images confirm my suspicion, however - the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis (mother Cleophea Lenk or Lienk) is not correct: the mother is Cleve Urmi! This might be forgivable: the family moved to Urdorf in 1665 and moved away again to Windisch in 1678; Hans Jakob's wife was not really known, possibly Lenk (or similar) was used as nickname. Whilst I have never heard this before - Cleve might be an abbreviation for Cleophea
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| 1678 Heinrich Huber, Catharina Sidler in Urdorf film 008126303 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis |
We obviously have connections for Sidler between Ottenbach and Mettmenstetten. The connection to Urdorf might(!) be the husband: Huber is one of the most common names in German speaking regions – no surprise they also held pre-1800 citizenship in Urdorf.
Catalogus - 1 - Der Kirchen und Gemeinds-genoßen zu OberUrdorfCatalogue oft the parish and community members in Oberurdorf
II Heinrich Huber, Anna Oberdörfferin (https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/detail.aspx?ID=2026999)
Kinder:
25 Hanß, in der Pfalz (Palatinate)
Söhn in der Ehe (married sons):
a. Hanß Jagli Huber, Cleophea Lenckin (no corresponding marriage entry in EDB) (Jagli=Jakob)
Kinder:
18 Adelheit
16 Hanß (diser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr ... zogen (moved somewhere?)
b. Heinrich Huber, Catharina Sydlerin
Kinder:
16 Anna (bapt. 10.08.1662)
14 Hanß (bapt. 14.02.1664)
12 Heinrich
3 Cathrindli
½ Magdalendli
The first two names match with the baptisms above.
Wolf: I have now published the Huber data on Geneal-Forum.
Whilst writing this up I had another look at the BV page - and came to another conclusion: "diser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr ... zogen" doesn't refer to Hans - but his father Hans Jagli - and if I read/interpret this correctly, Hans Jagli (better: he and his family) had moved to Urdorf from Windisch, (today) canton Aargau. In this case the parents may have married in Aargau - which would explain why there is no entry in EDB. See Hans Jakob Huber oo (vor 1660) Cleophea Lenk.