GatheringGardiners: "Klein" Hans Sidler 1641

When Hans Siedler was born on 12 December 1641, in Ottenbach, Zürich, Switzerland, his father, Rudolf Sidler, was 29 and his mother, Veronica Frey, was 26. He married Catryna Huber on 6 December 1664, in Ottenbach, Zürich, Switzerland. They were the parents of at least 5 sons and 7 daughters.

Kent: What is the word before Hans born 1641? Klein? meaning small?

Wolf: Correct - small more in the sense of younger: Kleinhans is not an "official" name, but used in the family (or even the community) to differentiate him from another, older Hans - here most likely his grandfather.

Kinder:
31.12.1665 Katharina, + 12.03.1666
09.06.1667 Hans Jakob (Jogeli), oo Nov. 1696 Barbara Berli (+1742), + 01.02.1745
11 August 1672 Margareth, ooI 07 December 1697 Hans Leutert, ooII 08 April 1710 Hans Jakob Berli, + 03.08.1743
25 December 1674 Heinrich, oo 26 November 1700 Elsbeth Frick (1682-1727), + 01.01.1748
17.02.1678 Susanna, oo August.01.1704 Kaspar Bär, + 27.11.1758
12 May 1681 Jakob, + 08 October 1694

Documents related to Klein Hans Sidler:

1641 Hans Sidler baptism 12 Dec Ottenbach page 140

Wolf:
Date: den 12.ten tag 10bris [1641] (12.12.1641)
Parents: Rudli Sÿdler von Ottenbach / Veronica Freÿin
Kinder: Hanß
Witnesses: Hanß Gutt von Nider Lummeren / Anna Stehlin von Ober Lummeren

1664 Hans Sidler marriage to Cathrina Huber 6 Dec
Ottenbach film 008014328 page 347

Wolf:
Den 6.ten Decemb(ris) [1664]
Marriage: 2. Hannß Sÿdler allhir / Cathrina Huberin von Mettmannstetten (Mettmenstetten)

1678 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Rudolf Sidler and
Veronica Frey film 8126303 page 467

Wolf:

Veronica Frey is listed as a widow because Rudolf died 28 September 1675
The second family is Hans Sidler born 12 Dec 1641 and his wife Catharina Huber: K2MP-WTF
The third family is Rudolf Sidler and his wife Anna Biehl: GYWM-B8W
The last family is Caspar Sidler and his wife Barbara Gut: K895-YQP
Kent: What is the word before Hans born 1641? Klein? meaning small?
Wolf: Correct - small more in the sense of younger: Kleinhans is not an "official" name, but used in the family (or even the community) to differentiate him from another, older Hans - here most likely his grandfather.
Wolf: "Rudi Sÿdler der alt" indicates that there is (at least was) a "Rudi der jung" around. Do you know of a suitable candidate? Billeter has this Rudolf bapt. 25.02.1644 - who according to the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis was named Hans Jagli …. have you checked this baptismal date yet?
Restatement of the Problem: According to Billeter, a Rudolf is baptized on 25.02.1644 - but the population register of 1678 confirms the name Hans Jogli. Hans Jogli is also given as 26 years old in 1670 - only in 1646 is he not mentioned (only Barbara with 7 and Hans with 6).Billeter's misunderstanding was probably caused by the subsequent entry of the baptism:

1678 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Veronica Frey film 8126303 page 467

Re Bevölkerungsverzeichnis 1678: structure depended to some extent on the pastor writing it up - and also changed with time. The older records from e.g. Uster (where I had done some research many years ago) were organised per household: this does not necessarily mean that this holds for other parishes at different times as well.
Let's look at XXXIII from 1678: We have Rudi Seidlers widow - quite likely that she lived together with her eldest son and his family. And we have the two younger sons - both married but without children - again quite likely that they lived in the same house. I am not familiar with the situation in Ottenbach, but e.g. in Thurgau I had many situations where one "house" consisted of several "flats". So I consider it quite likely that all these people lived together - but cannot be sure.

1889 Young Hans Sidler in Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse film 00814133
page 333

Wolf:
Kleinhanß Seidler, Kilchmejer
Chilch-/Kilch- is dialect for Kirch-… / Meier is an administrator - could be at very different levels. Idiotikon describes two situations:
1. Administrator of the church property (but usually only a subordinate assistant to the recipient of the church interest).
2. Head of the parish.
Under the circumstances I tend towards (2).
BTW - 1689 - not 1889.

1889 Ottenbach Bevölkerungsverzeichniss film 008014133 page 336

12 Dec 1641 Hans, 06 Dec 1664 Katharina Huber

1695 Hans Rudi Sidler, Parish officer film 008014130 page 466

Wolf:
Die Vorgesezten und Eltesten dieser Pfarr(ei)
So dem Stillstand bejwohnen, sind
folgende
The superiors and elders of this parish who are attending the Stillstand are as follows:
1. Von Ottenbach
Melchior Häberlig, Eh(e)gaumer
David Hegetschwÿler, Eh(e)gaumer
Hans Rudj Sÿdler, Eh(e)gaumer
Frejamtshaubtm(ann) H(an)s Rudolf Hegetschwÿler, Richter
Klei(n)hans Sÿdler, Kilchmejer
Hans Funk der Müller, Keller=Amts=Weibel
*There were two different institutions collecting taxes - Kelleramt for liquids (e.g. wine) and Kammeramt for solid taxes (e.g. grain). The Weibel was working for such institutions are various levels, usually not really high-ranking, more for announcements and actually collecting the taxes, rather than administration.

Note: An Ehegaumer is an ecclesiastical judge of morals, watching for bigamy, illegitimacy and heresy.

Note: A Richter is a male judge.

Note: Kilchmejer is a farmer on church land.

Note: Weibel is a sergeant or court usher.

Note on Stillstand: These courts were mainly set up in the cities; corresponding institutions in the "countryside" (often named Stillstand) had less authority: they often could reprimand, but not penalize - corresponding cases had to be sent to the moral court in the city (which in some cities even could impose the death penalty for e.g. being convicted a witch). Members of these courts were Kirchmeier or Kirchenpfleger (which previously had been responsible mainly for the administration of the parishes assets, usually a long term duty), Ehegaumer (not restricted to, but mainly in Bern and Zürich, also Appenzell Ausserrhoden and Schaffhausen, usually elected for 3 years), Chorrichter or Eherichter respectively, the priest (Prediger) and a few more. Following the revolutionary years (1798 …) the importance of th Moral Courts diminished, some were dissolved, some re-established again later - but the Federal Constitution of 1848 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution) put an end of them. In Appenzell Ausserrhoden there still was the institution of Ehegäumer in the cantonal laws 1864 (as a governmental institution)

1695 Bevölkerungsverzeichniss Ottenbach Klein Hns Sidler
film 008014130 page 471

1708 Bevölkerungsverzeichniss Young Hans Sidler

Ottenbach film 007765851 page 657

Wolf:
The Bevölkerungsverzeichnis lists living members of families in the parish - so someone listed himself (not e.g. as former husband of a widowed wife) will be alive when the list was compiled (the exact year has to be taken with a bit of caution).
Note: The word on the right is Testament: same word for the parts of the bible and a person's will. What does this suggest?? This is the only occasion on the page: could you check neighbouring pages whether this is the rare exception - or can be found occasionally?

Notes: are "Eine Bibel" (a bible) or "Eine Bibel und andere Bücher" (a bible and other books) or even "Ein Testament": this makes it clear that the pastor noted which books were available in the household - just none in most cases.

Kent: Not many people had a bible in their home.

40.a. (parents)

1641 Hanß Sydler Kirchmeÿer vnd (.... Testament)

1644 Catharina Huber
(40)b. (son and family)
1667 Jacob Sÿdler vnd
1673 Barbara Berli
… Kinder
… 1697 Melchior
… 1698 Caspar
… 1700 Margaretha
… 1704 Hanß Jacob
… 1706 Rudolff
… 1707 Barbara
(40)c. (son and family)
1674 Heinrich Sÿdler vnd
1682 Elisabetha Frikin
… Kinder
… 1702 Barbara
… 1705 Hanß Rudolff
… 1706 Elisabetha

Wolf: Re: Testament. Could you check neighboring pages whether this is the rare exception - or can be found occasionally?

Kent: Here are two pages for reference. I don't see a lot of side comments. I did find one more Testament and the phases in the first document are found occasionally.

1708 Bevölkerungsverzeichniss film 007765851 page 661

1708 Bevölkerungsverzeichniss film 007765851 page 665.jpg

1727 Hans Sidler burial 12 mar film 008014328 page 400 age 86

Kent:

1727 Hans Sidler von Ottenbach 12 March

Note: I searched the Ottenbach death records starting at 1709 when we know he was alive from the previous document until I found a Hans Sidler death. This is the first one I found.