Graben counted 78 households in 1742, Protestant, except for about 42 souls Roman Catholic. Number of school children: 80.
What happened to their children?
Eva Christins Schmidt 1714 deceased
Johann Henrich Schmidt 1716-1716
Schmidt child 1717-1717
Maria Barbara Schmidt 1718 deceased
Eva Margaretha Schmidt 1720-1770
Schmidt child 1722-1722
Johann Adam Schmidt 1723 deceased
Documents relating to Johann Valentin Schmidt:
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| Marriage of Johann Schmitdt and Margaretha Rösch 102078348 page 288 |
Johann Valentin Schmitt of Hoffstetten, his occupation is that of a weaver, married 21 Nov 1713 Eva Margaretha nee Roeschin
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| Marriage of George Adam Cammerer and Eva Margaretha Schmidt 1739 film 04137289 page 560 |
Translation by Ulrich Neitzel:
In the year 1739, on 27 February were blessed into holy matrimony Georg Adam Cammerer, surviving legitimate unmarried son of Johann Wendel Cammerer, deceased citizen and farrier, and Eva Margaretha, legitimate unmarried daughter of Valentin Schmidt, citizen and juryman, as well as linen weaver. They had a marriage sermon.
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| Death of Valentin Schmidt 17 May 1747film 004137289 page 590 |
Death of Valentin Schmidt, 17 May 1747
Ulrich Neitzel:
"It is certainly true that there were different levels of funeral ceremonies. Only on this page of the church book there are named "Läutung der kleinen Glocke" (ringing of the little bell), "Läutung aller Glocken" (ringing of all bells), "Glockenklang" (sound of bells). The little bell is often also called the "Totenglocke" (death bell).The scope of ceremonies had certainly to do with the rank of the person, which in turn determined how much was paid (or better donated) to the church for the funeral service. I don't think there was a "manual" for this purpose, but people did know it and made their arrangement with the pastor."
Kent: It is funny how it always comes back to how the bells are rung. I will bet when the bells were rung the people of the community knew exactly what each ringing meant:"Läutung der kleinen Glocke" (ringing of the little bell),
"Läutung aller Glocken" (ringing of all bells),
"Glockenklang" (sound of bells).ed; age [not filled in].
"It is certainly true that there were different levels of funeral ceremonies. Only on this page of the church book there are named "Läutung der kleinen Glocke" (ringing of the little bell), "Läutung aller Glocken" (ringing of all bells), "Glockenklang" (sound of bells). The little bell is often also called the "Totenglocke" (death bell).The scope of ceremonies had certainly to do with the rank of the person, which in turn determined how much was paid (or better donated) to the church for the funeral service. I don't think there was a "manual" for this purpose, but people did know it and made their arrangement with the pastor."
Kent: It is funny how it always comes back to how the bells are rung. I will bet when the bells were rung the people of the community knew exactly what each ringing meant:"Läutung der kleinen Glocke" (ringing of the little bell),
"Läutung aller Glocken" (ringing of all bells),
"Glockenklang" (sound of bells).ed; age [not filled in].
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| Magdalena Weidmann death 11 Nov 1761 film 4137289 page 615 second copy for clarity. |
Translation:
Anna Magdalena of the deceased Valentine Schmidt citizen and master weaver and juryman, member of the court, born Weidmann, her birth surname, 70 years 8 months and 16 days, Schmid, in at the end.
Robert Seal Translation:
Hello Kent,Anna Magdalena, born Weidmänn, is the widow of Valentin Schmid. Valentin is a male forename. What is written in the fourth column on the right is her married surname at the time of her death with the German female surname suffix "in": Schmidin = Schmid. Notice both her forenames and her married surname are underlined. I would read these underlined words as a single phrase: "Anna Magdalena Schmidin" = Anna Maria Schmid. The last word in the third line of the record is "Wittib" = widow.The record states that Anna Magdalena's maiden surname is: "Weidmännin" = Weidmänn.
Kent Question: So Anna Magdalena marries Hans Wendel Kammerer 1682-1735 and together they had 10 children. The last was born in 1733. Two years later Hans Wendel dies. She remarries Valentine Schmid. He dies sometime before her death in 1761. The interesting thing is that two of her grandchildren are supposedly mislabeled with the last name of Schmid instead of Scholl? How can this be?
Kent Question: There are three ways to look at this:
Way one: The last two children Anna Maria Scholl and Maria Catharina Scholl are the two girls in question. Anna Maria Scholl's birth record says Schmid and Maria Catharina's birth and marriage say Schmid. Why would their mother be identified as Schmid rather than Kammerer?
The big question. Why are the two girls identified with the name of the grandmother's second husband? Very strange indeed. If one was identified that way you might say it was a mistake. But two? Seems impossible that it is just a mistake.
Robert Seal's review of the evidence: Hello Kent,
Your research is impeccable and after reviewing the pertinent parish records, I believe this is a mis-identification of the maiden surname of Anna Maria Kammerer on the part of the pastor or his parish register scribe.
Anna Magdalena of the deceased Valentine Schmidt citizen and master weaver and juryman, member of the court, born Weidmann, her birth surname, 70 years 8 months and 16 days, Schmid, in at the end.
Robert Seal Translation:
Hello Kent,Anna Magdalena, born Weidmänn, is the widow of Valentin Schmid. Valentin is a male forename. What is written in the fourth column on the right is her married surname at the time of her death with the German female surname suffix "in": Schmidin = Schmid. Notice both her forenames and her married surname are underlined. I would read these underlined words as a single phrase: "Anna Magdalena Schmidin" = Anna Maria Schmid. The last word in the third line of the record is "Wittib" = widow.The record states that Anna Magdalena's maiden surname is: "Weidmännin" = Weidmänn.
Kent Question: So Anna Magdalena marries Hans Wendel Kammerer 1682-1735 and together they had 10 children. The last was born in 1733. Two years later Hans Wendel dies. She remarries Valentine Schmid. He dies sometime before her death in 1761. The interesting thing is that two of her grandchildren are supposedly mislabeled with the last name of Schmid instead of Scholl? How can this be?
Kent Question: There are three ways to look at this:
Way one: The last two children Anna Maria Scholl and Maria Catharina Scholl are the two girls in question. Anna Maria Scholl's birth record says Schmid and Maria Catharina's birth and marriage say Schmid. Why would their mother be identified as Schmid rather than Kammerer?
The big question. Why are the two girls identified with the name of the grandmother's second husband? Very strange indeed. If one was identified that way you might say it was a mistake. But two? Seems impossible that it is just a mistake.
Robert Seal's review of the evidence: Hello Kent,
Your research is impeccable and after reviewing the pertinent parish records, I believe this is a mis-identification of the maiden surname of Anna Maria Kammerer on the part of the pastor or his parish register scribe.
Robert Seal answer: Let's review: Pastor J. J. Ritter begins his ministry in Graben in 1757. This is 22 years after Hans Wendel Kammerer dies in 1735 and 10 years after Valentin Schmid's death in 1747. So Pastor Ritter would not be personally knowledgeable of these two men. Also note that when Pastor Ritter arrives in Graben in 1757, Magdalena (Weidmann) Kammerer Schmid has been a widow for 10 years and may only be known as the widow Schmid, surviving wife of Valentin Schmid, to Pastor Ritter. Since Pastor Ritter arrives in Graben in 1757, he is responsible for recording the births and/or baptizing the last four children of Johann Georg Scholl and Anna Maria Kammerer. These children are: a stillborn son delivered on 11 Sep 1758 where the mother is identified as Anna Maria Kammerer.
Margaretha Scholl, born 16 Nov 1759 where the mother identified as Anna Maria Kammerer. Anna Maria Scholl, born 13 Feb 1762, died 25 Dec 1764, where the mother in both records is identified as Anna Maria Schmid. Maria Catharina Scholl, born 18 Apr 1765, where the mother is identified as Anna Maria Schmid. So what happened between the birth of Margaretha Scholl in Nov 1759 and the birth of Anna Maria Scholl in Feb 1762? The grandmother, Magdalena (Weidmann) Kammerer Schmid, died in Graben on 11 Nov 1761. In her death/burial record Magdalena is identified as the widow of Valentin Schmid and her maiden surname is recorded as Weidmann. There is no mention in this record that this is her second marriage and her first husband is not mentioned (which is not unusual at all).
Then after Magdalena dies in 1761, the records for the next two children born to Johann Georg Scholl and Anna Maria Kammerer identify the children's mother as Anna Maria Schmid.
So there's the possibility that if the pastor or register scribe knew that Anna Maria was the daughter of Magdalena Schmid (where Schmid was her married surname), he simply assumed that Anna Maria was the daughter of Valentin Schmid and Magdalena, because he was not aware of Magdalena's first marriage to Hans Wendel Kammerer who was the actual father of Anna Maria Kammerer.
This is one possibility. Of course the odd thing is, Pastor Ritter gets the surname right in the first two children's records born in 1758 and 1759, and then gets the surname wrong in the last two children's records.
The other possibility is that the pastor or scribe simply made a mistake in these last two records. I have found this same type of "maiden surname" error in my own research and when all the documentation supports that an apparent mistake has been made (which your documentation supports) I add a note along the lines of: The parish scribe misidentified the child's mother in this birth record as "Schmid" when her surname is actually "Kammerer". This is an emphatic statement which tells your audience that you are aware of the discrepancy and have made a decision that based on all the available evidence, this is an error.
Pastor: The Graben Pastor from 1757-1798 was J. J. Ritter. He entered this record and made end of life arrangements including funeral and burial spot.
Margaretha Scholl, born 16 Nov 1759 where the mother identified as Anna Maria Kammerer. Anna Maria Scholl, born 13 Feb 1762, died 25 Dec 1764, where the mother in both records is identified as Anna Maria Schmid. Maria Catharina Scholl, born 18 Apr 1765, where the mother is identified as Anna Maria Schmid. So what happened between the birth of Margaretha Scholl in Nov 1759 and the birth of Anna Maria Scholl in Feb 1762? The grandmother, Magdalena (Weidmann) Kammerer Schmid, died in Graben on 11 Nov 1761. In her death/burial record Magdalena is identified as the widow of Valentin Schmid and her maiden surname is recorded as Weidmann. There is no mention in this record that this is her second marriage and her first husband is not mentioned (which is not unusual at all).
Then after Magdalena dies in 1761, the records for the next two children born to Johann Georg Scholl and Anna Maria Kammerer identify the children's mother as Anna Maria Schmid.
So there's the possibility that if the pastor or register scribe knew that Anna Maria was the daughter of Magdalena Schmid (where Schmid was her married surname), he simply assumed that Anna Maria was the daughter of Valentin Schmid and Magdalena, because he was not aware of Magdalena's first marriage to Hans Wendel Kammerer who was the actual father of Anna Maria Kammerer.
This is one possibility. Of course the odd thing is, Pastor Ritter gets the surname right in the first two children's records born in 1758 and 1759, and then gets the surname wrong in the last two children's records.
The other possibility is that the pastor or scribe simply made a mistake in these last two records. I have found this same type of "maiden surname" error in my own research and when all the documentation supports that an apparent mistake has been made (which your documentation supports) I add a note along the lines of: The parish scribe misidentified the child's mother in this birth record as "Schmid" when her surname is actually "Kammerer". This is an emphatic statement which tells your audience that you are aware of the discrepancy and have made a decision that based on all the available evidence, this is an error.
Pastor: The Graben Pastor from 1757-1798 was J. J. Ritter. He entered this record and made end of life arrangements including funeral and burial spot.