Barbara Salzmann was born 19 February 1604 in Maschwanden and
died 31 July 1672 in Ottenbach. She married Heinrich Grob 14 August 1626 in
Knonau, Zurich. Schweiz. He was a Miller in Ottenbach where he
died. (in German nouns are often capitalized.)
Important information:
Heinrich Grob, married to Barbara Salzmann on 04.08.1626, is probably identical to :
- In 1638, Ottenbach miller Heinrich Grob and the civil community of Ottenbach applied to the “gracious lords” in Zurich for permission to build an additional mill (new “malhufen” with a millstone and floor stone and a waterwheel) on common land on the Reuss (with a canal to the mill), because the existing mill from the Mühleweier received too little water during dry summer months to grind all the grain.
Document on the Wikipedia website “Ottenbach ZH”.
- In 1638, Ottenbach miller Heinrich Grob and the civil community of Ottenbach petitioned the “gracious lords” in Zurich to allow him to erect a new “malhufen” - consisting of a millstone and a ground stone, as well as a waterwheel - on the Reuss. During the “hot and dry” summer months, there was not enough water in the mill pond.
Document on the website “Weaving mill Haas - Bodmer - Hürlimann” by Peter Eichhorn, Ottenbach, Canton Zurich.
- In 1638, miller Grob asked the authorities whether he could build a mill with a waterwheel on the Reuss, as the Müliweiher had too little water. This is already shown on the Gyger map of 1667.
Document on the website “Bäche in Ottenbach” by Peter Eichhorn, Ottenbach, Canton Zurich.
Wolf: I have come across a very interesting notebook listing Grob baptisms in Knonau. I have summarized on Geneal-Forum all data of relevance to your line.
Conclusion: the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis is a bit misleading and likely even wrong (in one aspect).
1) The families likely moved from Knonau to Ottenbach around 1631/33.2) Felix is not the father of Joss and Heinrich (this was my interpretation - not explicitly stated) - he is just a relative, likely widowed and therefore just moving with the others.
3) If the baptism 1605 is the correct Heinrich, he and Joss will not be brothers - but father and son.
At familysearch there is an excerpted transcript of Grob's baptisms in Knonau with additions from the household records. Here are the relevant details in connection with the line discussed here (supplemented with links to church register entries and the Zurich marriage database):
um 1567 Felix oo Anna Frick, + um 1650
Felix Grob (oo vor 1600) Anna Frick (lebt mit den Anderen in Ottenbach - ist aber nicht deren Vater?) (lives with the others in Ottenbach - but is not their father?)
25.12.1600 Christina
24.01.1602 Jacob
23.10.1603 Gorius
31.07.1605 Anna, + 24.03.1621
25.10.1607 Hans Jakob, oo 17.10.1632 Elsbeth Maurer
18.03.1610 Ulrich +
17.05.1612 Hans, + 29.03.1637 ledig
Jost/Joss Grob (oo vor 1605) Dorothea Frey
- 21.07.1605 Hans Heinrich, oo 04.08.1626 Barbara Salzmann, + 08.05.1676
28.08.1608 Salomo
06.01.1611 Lienhard
Jos Grob oo 17.11.1611 Katharina Weiss
30.05.1613 Jakob
25.09.1614 Barbara, + 02.01.1615
18.02.1617 Barbara, + 04.01.1630
Jos/Jost Grob oo 30.05.1619 Verena Salzmann
27.08.1620 Anna, + 30.11.1628
13.02.1622 Heinrich, + 02.03.1624
29.02.1624 Jos
07.10.1626 Verena, + 23.12.1626
25.11.1627 Margretha
09.01.1631 Anna (vor 1634 verstorben?)
weitere Kinder * in Ottenbach > um 1631/1633 nach Ottenbach verzogen
Heinrich Grob oo 04.08.1626 Barbara Salzmann
14.05.1627 Heinrich, + 16.06.1627
20.04.1628 Verena
03.03.1630 Heinrich (vor 1634 verstorben?)
weitere Kinder * in Ottenbach > um 1631/1633 nach Ottenbach verzogen
The only Hans Heinrich is baptized on 21.07.1605 as the son of Jost Grob and Dorothea Frey. Felix would therefore not be the father of Hans Heinrich and Joß in the population register of Ottenbach. They both moved to Ottenbach with their families (and their sister Margreth) around 1631/1633 - Felix may have come with them as a widower.
Questions: If Joss (oo Verena Salzmann) and Heinrich (oo Barbara Salzmann) are brothers (population register 1640), Hans Heinrich, born in 1605, would not be the husband of Barbara Salzmann ... otherwise they would be father and son. Is there another Hans Heinrich (not baptized in Knonau) - or is the population register wrong about the families who moved to Knonau only a few years ago?
Questions: If Joss (oo Verena Salzmann) and Heinrich (oo Barbara Salzmann) are brothers (population register 1640), Hans Heinrich, born in 1605, would not be the husband of Barbara Salzmann ... otherwise they would be father and son. Is there another Hans Heinrich (not baptized in Knonau) - or is the population register wrong about the families who moved to Knonau only a few years ago?
End
Re: Grob from Knonau ZH (in Ottenbach ZH)
Post by Säntis “ Mon 9 Sep 2024, 07:43
Greetings Kent,
two more documents on Heinrich Grob, miller in Ottenbach:
In 1645 Heinrich Grob, miller, received permission to operate a millstone at approximately the present turbine location. Nothing is known about the fate of this mill.
Document on the website of the Ottenbach Historical Small Power Station Association.
1647 Arbitration by local dignitaries of the office in a dispute between the municipality of Ottenbach and the Ottenbach miller Heinrich Grob. Comprehensive regulation of water rights (such as canal to the mill, mill pond and watering of the communal mats, hydraulic engineering obligations of the miller) and regulation of water rights regarding the construction of a new mill on the Reuss on communal land, authorized by an official decision.
Document on a website of the archive guide of the Zurich municipalities and parishes as well as the urban suburbs before 1798, Protestant Reformed parish of Ottenbach, documents on parchment.
Säntis
Hello Kent,
as a supplement to the two contributions of 09.09.2024.
Historical map by Hans Conrad Gyger (1667)
The count and rulership, place, land and territory belonging to the noble city of Zurich: together with the adjoining neighboring lands and common bailiwicks, with mountains and valleys, woods and forests, waters, roads and marches: all drawn according to geometric instructions, brought onto this plan, and completed Anno Christi MDCLXIIII for the benefit and honor of his dear fatherland.
Hans Conrad Beyger Burger und Ammbtman im Cappellerhof Lobl. Instead of Zurich 1667.
General view on a website of maps.zh.ch
Detail of Ottenbach with the mills .
Hans Konrad Gyger's Züricher-Cantons-Carte 1667, Zurich 1891.
Digitized version on a website of e-rara.ch
Page 38, sheet 46: Detail of Ottenbach with the mills.
Roman Walt, The “most beautiful flowering” of cartography: the Gyger map of 1667, on an ETHeritage website.
Säntis
1834 Church Census:
The 1834 Ottenbach census has Heinrich Grob (21 July 1605 - 8 May 1676) and Barbara Salzmann with 2 children. Verena 3 and Barbara 1.
Apparently two brothers married two sisters. The 1834 Ottenbach census also has Heinrich's brother Joss Grob married to Verena Salzmann and is also a miller in Afoltern which is near Ottenbach. They have three children
The 1834 Ottenbach census has Heinrich Grob (21 July 1605 - 8 May 1676) and Barbara Salzmann with 2 children. Verena 3 and Barbara 1.
Apparently two brothers married two sisters. The 1834 Ottenbach census also has Heinrich's brother Joss Grob married to Verena Salzmann and is also a miller in Afoltern which is near Ottenbach. They have three children
Joss 7,
Margrove
age 4 and
Hans age 1.
They are all from Inonouw?
Affoltern
The municipality of Affoltern is located west of the Albis hills in the moraine
landscape around the Reuss. It was created in the 19th Century through the
merger of Ober- and Unteraffoltern, Zwillikon and Loo-Fehrenbach.
1640 Church Census
The 1640 census has Heinrich Grob as a Müllar translated miller or someone who grinds grains.
16 year
old Margaretha has completed her catechism,
Verena is 15 has
completed her catechism and
Barbara is 7 and is working on hers.
There are two
other children
Hans age 9 and
Elsath age 3.
History:
Parents:
Barbara Salzmann was born 19 February 1604 in Maschwanden and died 31 July 1672 in Ottenbach. She married Heinrich Grob 14 August 1626 in Knonau, Zurich. Schweiz. He was a Miller in Ottenbach where he died.
The 1834 Ottenbach census has Heinrich Grob (21 July 1605 - 8 May 1676) and Barbara Salzmann with 2 children. Verena 3 and Barbara 1.
Heinrich's Profession
A miller is a person who operates a mill, a machine to grind a grain (for example corn or wheat) to make flour. Milling is among the oldest of human occupations. As an important part of his job, the miller repeatedly takes into his hand samples of the ground meal coming out of the spout in order to feel the quality and character of the product. The miller rubs the grain between his thumb and forefinger. After years of doing this, the miller's thumb changes shape and becomes broad and flattened. This is known as a "miller's thumb". (Wikipedia)
The inner Swiss estates fought fiercely against the Reformation, which led to the two Kappeler Wars of 1529 and 1531 and finally to a compromise between the cantons. Knonauer did not fall in these wars, but the Knonau Castle was damaged when the Inner Swiss marched through the area after their victory, burning, raping and looting. Therefore, between 1534 and 1540 the castle was fortified by a high wall and a moat with a fall bridge fed by the Wattbach.
Not only the castle was built during this time, but also the oldest still existing farmhouse in Knonau, which according to oral tradition was built in the year 1512 in the Baaregg. It is a well-preserved plank stand building with a gable roof and large adhesive roofs, is located in the center of the hamlet of Baaregg and is of cantonal importance in the inventory of protected objects.
After the Reformation, Zurich also introduced the office of "Ehegaumer", which had to check the moral behavior of the subjects. They supervised the police hour (in the 18th century at 9 p.m.), the regular church visit of all villagers as well as the observance of morals and church mandates. In the 17th In the 19th century, the authority of the marriage goy was expanded to a "standstill". It included the Landvogt, the pastor, the Landschreiber, the Freiamtsweibel (the lordly police officers) and the Kirchmeier (church nurse). The Knonau standstill in 1678 is first attested. The standstill was an ecclesiastical authority, however, until 1799 when the "municipality" - the later municipal council - was introduced, it was the only authority in Knonau's present sense and had a weight in the village that should not be underestimated.
From this time, the 17th century, other buildings still preserved today, such as the Buechhof built in 1635, the parsonage with a laundry shop built in the village center (see picture on the right), which reflects the influence and reputation of the pastor at that time, and the house Meili in Hinteruttenberg built around 1680. All these buildings today belong to the inventory of protected objects of cantonal or regional importance. (Knonau website)
From this time, the 17th century, other buildings still preserved today, such as the Buechhof built in 1635, the parsonage with a laundry shop built in the village center (see picture on the right), which reflects the influence and reputation of the pastor at that time, and the house Meili in Hinteruttenberg built around 1680. All these buildings today belong to the inventory of protected objects of cantonal or regional importance. (Knonau website)
| year | population |
|---|---|
| 1450 | c. 110 |
| 1634 | 226 |
| 1750 | 359 |
| 1850 | 594 |
| 1900 | 529 |
| 1950 | 649 |
| 2000 | 1,445 |
Documents related to Heinrich Grob:
 |
| 1605 Hans Heinrich Grob baptism Knonau Film 8014288 page 76 |
Hans Heinrÿch, ein ehlicher Son Jos Graben vnd Dorathe Frÿ, ward getoufft den 21 tag Julÿ A(nn)o 1605.
Zügen Fenderÿch Gründler vnd Elsÿ Walder.
Fenderÿch = Fähnrich = flagbearer.
DeepL: Hans Heinrÿch, a legitimate son of Jos Graben and Dorathe Frÿ, was married on the 21st day of July 1605.
Wolf:
here are three marriages recorded for 1626 - all three potentially of some interest:
03.05.1626 Hans Künradt Vrmi, Agnes Heggetschwÿller beide zu Kno(nauw)
04.08.1626 Heinrich Grob zu Knonauw, Barbara Salzmann vo(n) Maschw(anden)
08.11.1626Heinrich Freÿ uß der Barregg, Verena Grob zu Knonauw (likely not your Grob line)
Furthermore there is on this page
30.05.1619 Joß Grob, viduus zu Knonauw, Verena Salzmann, vidua vo(n) Maschw(anden)
Fenderÿch Gründler and Elsÿ Walder.
Fenderÿch = ensign = flagbearer
 |
| Heinrich Grob and Barbara Salzmann marriage 3 March 1626 Knonau film 8014288 page 126 |
here are three marriages recorded for 1626 - all three potentially of some interest:
03.05.1626 Hans Künradt Vrmi, Agnes Heggetschwÿller beide zu Kno(nauw)
04.08.1626 Heinrich Grob zu Knonauw, Barbara Salzmann vo(n) Maschw(anden)
08.11.1626Heinrich Freÿ uß der Barregg, Verena Grob zu Knonauw (likely not your Grob line)
Furthermore there is on this page
30.05.1619 Joß Grob, viduus zu Knonauw, Verena Salzmann, vidua vo(n) Maschw(anden)
Heinrich's marriage:
 |
| Heinrich Grob and Barbara Salzmann with 2 children 1634 BV Ottenbach census film 8126308 page 293 |
 |
| Heinrich Grob and Barbara Salzmann 1640 BV Ottenbach census with Margaretha film 8014135 page 369 entry 152 |
 |
| Heinrich Grob Barbara Salzmann 1670 BV film 7765846 page 382 |
 |
| Heinrich Grob burial 8 May, Ottenbach, 1676 film 8014328 page 375 |
Wolf:
den 8. Maÿ [1676]
Heinrich Grob, der alt Müller allhir zu Otenb(ach)
So Heinrich had retired as miller - and likely Joss jr, the "Jungmüller" (Bevölkerungsverzeichnis 1647) had taken over.
den 8. Maÿ [1676]
Heinrich Grob, der alt Müller allhir zu Otenb(ach)
So Heinrich had retired as miller - and likely Joss jr, the "Jungmüller" (Bevölkerungsverzeichnis 1647) had taken over.
 |
| Herrliberger_-_Schloss_Knonau Castle of Knonau by David Herrliberger (1740) |
 |
| Knonau Kirch |