Friday, January 31, 2020

Vronegg Urmi 1605-1657

Vronegg Urmi was born 1605 in   Knonau Switzerland. Her parents are Uly Urmi and his wife Margreth Zverycher. On 10.11.1605 Vronegg Urmi, daughter of Ulrich(?) Urmi and Margreth Zürcher, “uß der Baregk” is baptized in Knonau: Margreth Zürcher could be this first wife and Vronegg a child from the first marriage.
The Kekule number (512) refers to Johann Robert Urmi (20.10.1891-27.08.1982) as the proband.She was born in Baaragg, Knonau Parish (from her marriage certificate and Zürich Archives). The Swiss Surname index says this name comes from Maschwanden just south of Ottenbach. This is where the Urmi family originated from. 
 
Wolf: The first mention of the name Urmi in the Zurich marriage database (Maschwanden parish) is from 1612. Most of the name bearers who married in Maschwanden gave Baregg as their origin - a hamlet belonging to Knonau ZH. The name appears there as early as 1556. It can therefore be assumed that the Urmi of Maschwanden originally came from Knonau, where the family has since died out.

Wolf: 
The name "Vronegg" or Fronegg or Froneck is a Swiss version for Veronica, today Veronika. It is often misread as Verena, Frena, Freni, Vrena, etc. The published on-line marriage data base (EDB) of Dr. Pfister of the Staatsarchive Zurich tells you whether it is Veronika or Vernena. He only uses the standard, normalized version (which is the one used still today both of first and last name to faciliate on-line research). Sometimes the old versions as read from the marriage books are indicated as comment line both for men and women.
Wolf: Note that EDB (my link) always uses standardised spellings to simplify searches. Verena could (in some records) be Vreni, Vreneli, Freni, … even worse Veronika with Veronica, Vronegg, Fronegg, Vroneck, Froneck, Vroneg - even Vroni (may, depending on handwriting, even not discernible from Vreni) and a few more.

Wolf In the baptismal record of her daughter Anna (1644) Vronseck is mentioned as Uli's daughter.
The parents (Ulrich Urmi and Margreth Zürcher) most likely got married between 1584 and 1601 (son 1602), when there is a gap in the Knonau marriage register.

Wolf: summary of Vronegg's father, Ulrich and her mother Margreth Zürcher
512) Ulrich Urmi Wife 1 Margreth Zürcher, Wife 2 Anna Kueni, Wife 3 Margaretha Walder
Ulrich Urmi “uß der Baregg”, constable, + between 1640 and 1643
Wife 1
Margreth Zürcher [§]
Children:
1. 27.01.1602 Hans oo 11.02.1629 Baur Barbara (vidua) > son Rudolf 23.12.1632
2. 10.11.1605 Froneck (Veronika) oo 03.02.1629 Jakob Sidler
3. Ulrich Urmi
Wife 2 Knonau 20.03.1608
Anna Kueni from Knonau
Children: 1608-1617 none found
Ulrich Urmi
Wife 3 Knonau 12.01.1617
Margaretha Walder from Knonau
Children:
02.11.1617 Anna (not mentioned in the population register of 1634 - therefore probably deceased before)
03.09.1620 Margreth, serves in the Hoff Buch in 1640, oo 19.01.1642 Frick Hans “Heini Fricken” son of Knonau.
No further children are mentioned in the population register of 1634.
According to the marriage entry of 1643, Alexander Urmi is “Ueli Urmi's own westerly constable's son in the Baregg”.
[A marriage entry for Uli Urmi with Margreth Zürcher is not found - they may have married between 1584 and 1601 (gap in the Knonau marriage register). The wife's name is only known from the two child baptisms. Uli Urmi was a widower when he married in 1608.
The Kekule number (512) refers to Johann Robert Urmi (20.10.1891-27.08.1982) as the subject. End of summary

Vronegg married Jakob Sidler of Ottenbach 3 February 1629. They had 7 children. The family is found in five censuses below, 1634, 1640, 1643,1647 and 1649. These censuses verify birth dates and reflect the progress the children are making in their religious education. 

What happened to their children?
Katharina Sidler 1631 married Jakob Kleiner, no known children, no death date
Melchior Sidler 1633-1706 had five children with Margaretha Bicklin, was a Wagner, five children, one married and three lived to be adults, lived 72 years 11 months 22 days. Note that the surname "Bicklin" is the feminine form of Bickel.
Hans Rudolf Sidler 1635-1710 married Margaretha Grob, 11 children, Margaretha died at 46, he remarried 4 years later to Margaretha Jlli, they had one child Marx who died, she died in 1692 and 18 years later he died,  lived to be 75, Margaretha Jlli had a scripture read at her funeral and was buried in traditional Swiss dress
Hans Sidler 1637 infant death
Verena Sidler 1639 infant death
Jakob Sidler 1642-1683 lived with his father his whole life, never married, died at 40
Anna Sidler 1644-1699 married Jakob Häberling, no known children, lived 55 years 0 months 1 day

Marriage information from the Zürich Archives:
Sidler; Jakob; Ottenbach;
Urmi; Veronika;
Baregg; 1629.02.03;
"Frau: ""Vronegk"";
""u§ der Baregk""";
Ottenbach;E III 88.2

Ulrich Urmi ooI Margreth Zürcher, ooII Anna Kueni, ooIII Margaretha Walder {512} (Ulrich died 28.03.1643 and in his death record says: Wachtmeister)
Wife 1 Margreth Zürcher
1.  27.01.1602 Hans (MZ) oo 11.02.1629 Baur Barbara
        child: 23.12.1632 Rudolf 
2.  10.11.1605 Froneck or 
Vronegg (MZ) oo 03.02.1629, died 17 Dec 1657
3.  02.11.1617 Anna (MW)
Wife 2 Anna Kueni
    no known children
Wife 3 Margaretha Walder from Knonau died: 20.10.1644 
1. 02.11.1617 Anna
2. 09.12.1618 Alexander (MW) oo 30.08.1643 Anna Lüssi, + 14.10.1676 {256}
    1. 13.11.1644 Barbara
    2.  27.03.1646 Verena oo 05.03.1679
    3.  09.05.1647 Margreth
    4.  27.08.1648 Ulrich, + 20.01.1649
    5.  16.12.1649 Ulrich oo 03.03.1678 Regula Vollenweider
                1st child:  13.12.1679 Hanßli
                2nd child: 18.09.1682 Anneli
    6.  31.03.1651 Anna
    7.  18.07.1652 Jakob oo 20.04.1681 Adelheid Funk {128}
    8.  02.04.1654 Felix, obiit in der Frömde
    9.  02.09.1655 Hans Jakob, +30.08.1676
    10.  01.01.1657 Arbogast oo 14.11.1683, + 23.11.1736
    11.  29.05.1659 Heinrich, + 16.08.1676
    12. 06.01.1661 Hans Rudolf
    13.  13.02.1662 Verena, + 12.05.1683
    14.  13.03.1664 Alexander, + 1671
    15.  19.11.1665 Elisabeth, + 01.09.1676
    16.  09.03.1670 Barbara
3.  03.09.1620 Margreth (MW)


Wolf: See my summary table on Geneal-Forum. Whilst compiling this I realised again: the Rifferswil families are not named Urmi - but Urner - and this is not a spelling variation, but different families, citizens of Hirzel ZH.
Vronegg Urmi (um1605-1657) oo Jakob Sidler
summary table on Geneal-Forum


Documents related to Vronegg Urmi:


Knonau Kirche

1556 Ulÿ Urmÿ baptism Knonau father Foelix Urmÿ 
Wolf notes: So we have Uli (son of Felix) born 1556 - a son could be born after about 1574. Vronegg's father was likely married between 1584 and 1601 ... i.e. born before about 1583. Conclusion: there could be an additional generation with an Uli born between 1574 and 1583. If we find an Uli there, the one born 1556 will likely be the grandfather. If we don't find one, there will be no definite answer, as at least 1580-1583 are definitely incomplete.
MoreAlso not proven is the asumption that Ulrich got married three times - see https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=34111#p128127. If born 1556 he would have been 61 when married with Walder Margaretha in 1617 - certainly possible. With Baaregg such a small hamlet (I have added a map in https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=34111#p128095), however, I would consider it highly unlikely that two different Uli Urmi would live there roughly at the same time.

1577 Heÿni Vrmj bap 10 Feb film 008014288 Page 54 Knonau
Griffy:
Baptizavi puella: Heyni Urmi, 10 die Frebruarij; Testes erant:
Uxor [Striben?] fronica [sender] denominata; compater Melchior gründele
Wolf: 
In the context of Urmi baptisms in Knonau ZH - there is an interesting entry transcribed on Geneal-Forum.
Baptizavi puella: Heyni Urmi, 10 die Frebruarij; Testes erant: Uxor [Striben?] fronica unde denominata; compater Melchior gründeler.
Although the baptismal name is not explicitly stated, the child was baptised Fronica after the godmother.

1594 Margareth Walderin Familienregister birth Knonau 22
Aug film 008191932 page 416
Wolf: 
Interesting document - the "missing a" wouldn't bother me at all. She certainly would be a plausible "candidate" for the  Urmi marriage in 1617(!)
1602 Margreth baptism Jan 27,  Parents: Züicherin and Uli Urmi  
Knonau film 008014288 page 71

Wolf: There is no marriage record with Margreth Zürcher - just parents of two children (daughter "vß der Baregk") - likely married between 1584 and 1601 (gap in marriage register).
20.03.1608: Urmi Ulrich "uß der Baregg" viduus & Kueni Anna
12.01.1617: Urmi Ulrich "uß der Baregg" viduus & Walder Margaretha
Did Ulrich Urmi marry three times - or are there different Ulrichs?

1605 Knonau Veronica Urmi birth 10 Nov  Zurich 
film 008014288 page 76 
Wolf: 
Not an easy one, I have to admit 😉.
Parents: Froneck, ein ehlichs dochter Vlis (= Ulrichs?) Vrmis vnd Margreth Zürÿcherin (= Züricherin?) ward getoufft den 10 ten Novemb(ris) 1605.
Note: A marriage mentioned in EDB would have helped - but there is nothing even close to it. The Knonau marriage register has a gap 1584-1606 … might explain this. In case you want to follow this up: Knonau Bevölkerungsverzeichnis 1634
Kent: Vronegg is from village of Baaragg, the parish is Knonau and that is where her birth record is located.
Wolf: Baaregg (today's spelling) is a hamlet belonging to the Knonau parish. Only one suitable baptism (within 1600-1611) was found - the Knonau baptismal record 10.11.1605:


1616 Felix Urmi marriage to Adelheita Grobin 11 Feb
Knonau film 008014288 page 126

Vronegg Urmi marriage in Ottenbach 3 February 1629 film 
8014328 page 103. She is from Baaregg (spelling FamilySearch),
 famiengeben means they were married
Wolf: 
Jagli Sÿdler von Ottenbach vnd Vronegk Vrmi vß der Baregk sind zu sammen geben (Tuesday) 3. Febr (16)29.
According to EDB there were no marriages documented in 1629 in Rifferswil. The information by Billeter, however, has obviously spread to the internet.
Other marriages: 

1634 Knonau Census film 008126308 page 270
Bevölkerungsverzeichniss 
Wolf: Knonau (Baaregg) 1634
Hans Urmi
Barbara Pürin
        Hans Ruodeli 1½(1632)
Ulrich Urmi
Margretha Walderin
        Alexander 15½(1618)
        Margretha 13½(1620)
Felix Urminn
Adelheita Grobin
        Gorius 11½(1622)
        Verena 4½(1629)
        Anna 3(1631)
Knonau (Baaregg) 1637
Knonau (Baaregg) 1640
Ottenbach 1634
Wolf: 
Uolrich Vrmj vnd Margretha Walderin
Alexander 15½ järig, kan auch den kürtzren [...?]
Margretha, 13½ järig, kann bätten [beten], die H(eiligen) 10 gebott

1634 Census Ottenbach Rudolf Sidler Vronegg Urmi page 293 
film 8126308 Bevölkerungsverzeichniss
Wolf: Ottenbach 1634
Jagli Sydler
Vroneg Urmi 
        Cathrin 2(1632)|
        Melchior ½(1633)
1637 Knonau Baregg Bevölkerungsverzeichniss
film 008014137
Wolf: Knonau (Baaregg) 1637
Ulrich Urmi
Margretha Walderin
        Alexander 20(1617)
        Margretha 16½(1620)|
Felix Urmi (der Widertuffer)
Adelheita Grobin
        Gorius 14(1623)
        Verrena 8½(1628)
        Anneli 6(1631)
        Köngeli 3½(1633)
Kent: Are Vronegg's parents, Uly Urmi and Margaret Zverycher, listed in the 1637 census? The census for Barge is one page long. See map below. 
Wolf: This will not be the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis for Baregg (there will be no separate BV for this hamlet) but just a single page in the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis Knonau - but (more important) this is a great help 😉!
Parents: 32 Ulrich Urmi und Margretha Walderin
Children: Alexander 20 > born about 1617 / Margretha 16½> born about 1621
Godparents? Wÿters dasälbsten (living there as well):
Jac(ob) Hehren S(elig) vo(n) Cnon(au) gewästen Schnÿders eheliches hinterlasenes Töchterli Lisabethli 7 years 5 weeks.
Living with the family is Lisabethli, born about 1630, daughter of the late Jacob Heer, tailor in Knonau. There is no info on the connection (godparents?) … try to find her baptismal entry (if interested).
Marriage: Ulrich Urmi and Margretha Walder married in Knonau 12.01.1617. Ulrich then was a widower - which would fit that Margaretha Zürcher is mentioned in 1605 as his wife, mother of Veronica. 
You could try to find her death entry.
Felix: The following entry (33) is about Felix Urmi, the Anabaptist, married Knonau 11.02.1616 Adelheita Grob - they likely converted after this marriage. Nevertheless at least the 3 older children seem to have gotten "proper" religious education.
BTW - ortsnamen.ch will show you Baaregg (modern spelling) SE of Knonau Parish and Town. See below:
Map including Knonau and Baregg  film 008191932 page 433
 The page before this map says 1825.


Felix Urmi Margretha Grob 1640 Knonau Church Census 

1640 Knonau Bevölkerungsverzeichnis film 8014135 page 324 number 17

Wolf: Knonau (Baaregg) 1640
Ulrich Urmi
Margretha Walderin
        deren Kinder
        dienend im Hof Buch (serving in the court book)
Felix Urmi (der Widertuffer)
Adelheita Grobin
        Gorius 17(1623)|
        Verrena 11½(1628) |
        Anneli 9(1631)
        Kongeli 6½(1633)

1640 Ottenbach Church Census, Jakob Sidler Vronegg Urmi  film 
8014135 page 368

1643 Ottenbach Church Jakob Sidler Vronegg
Urmi Censusfilm 8126307 page 348

1644 March 28 Ulrich Urmi, Wachtmeister !!! Baaragg burial
film 008014288 page 131

1644 Oct 20 .Margaretha Walder, widow of Ulrich Urmi Baaragg
burial film 008014288 page 131





1646  Ottenbach Census Jacob Sydler and Veronica aka Vronegg, Urmi 
page 732 film 8126305 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis
Kent:
From this census we learn their family was very religious. Each child's progress towards confirmation was noted: 
Katharina Sidler 1631-      Decal. k.h. (10 commandments class)
Melchior Sidler 1633         C.T earnel ___(preparing for confirmation at 13)
Hans Rudolf Sidler 1635   C.T.
Hans Sidler 1637               Cal minorum
Verena Sidler 1639            Decal.  (10 commandments class)
Jakob Sidler 1642-1683     Hymb
Anna Sidler 1644-1699
Melcher = Melchior seems very young at 13 to get the wine already ...(Source: Peter Bertschinger)
1647 Jakob Sidler and Veronica Urmin Ottenbach 
Census film 008126305 page 732 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis
1747 Census
 All their children as of 1747 are listed with information on their progress toward confirmation when they are 15 years old. 
The "T"means Testimonial (Zeugnusse, Zeugnisse) and the 
“C”  Communicantes or Confirmation (those after the communicaton with 15 years can go to the Lords's supper (Abendmahl) and partake of the sacrament. 
The Decal. refers to the 10 commandments Kirche curriculum. (Dr Ziegler Latin terms)

1649 Ottenbach Church Census, Jakob Sidler and Vronegg Urmi
film 8126304 page 140 first entry Bevölkerungsverzeichnis


Vronegg Urmi death 17 December 1657 Ottenbach film 8014328 
page 172 right side 
Wolf:
den 17.ten Decembris [1657]
Veronica Vrmeri(n) Jaglj Sÿdlers des wagners allhir ehliche haußfrauw
Note: In Geneal-Forum I have linked to am entry mentioning Knonau 10.11.1605 as her baptism: could you check the Knonau baptismal register - or have done so already?
Note: Deep L translation: Veronica Vrmeri(n) Jaglj Sÿdler the wagners wife in marriage. The words after her name translated are "the legitimate wife of the local Wagner."


Sidler and Hegetschweiler Temple Record Book by Julius Billeter pages 11 and 12
There is a mistake in Billeter's research. There is no marriage listed in Rifferswil for Vronegg. The Zürich archives have been checked and none found. 





Modern Baaregg near Knonau
Modern Baaregg near Knonau

1678 Ottenbach Bevölkerungsverzeichnis

Kent: This is Pastor Hans Kaspar Huber's key so a person can decipher where each child is in their progress towards confirmation.
Wolf: 
Nota. (transcription)
Explicatio numerorum et abbreviaturarum per totum Catalogum observanda.
Numerus parentibus praefixus denotat familias in quovis page.Numerus liberis in medio praefixus indicat annos aetatis eorum.Abbreviatturae postpositae innuunt scientiam ipsorum Catecheticam hoc modo notatam.
… Tenent et recitant …
Wolf: Explanation of the numbers and abbreviations to be observed throughout the catalogue.
A number in front of the parents identifies the families on each page.
The number preceding the children in the centre indicates their age.
The following abbreviations indicate their catechetical knowledge labelled in this way.
... They understand and recite ...
Or.Do. >>> Orationem Dominicam (Sunday Prayer)
Symb. >>> Symbolum Apostolicum (Confession of faith)
Deca. >>> Decalogum (The Ten Commandments)
C.M.int. >>> Catechismum majorem integrum (Complete Large Catechism)
Q.CM.C. >>> Quaestiones Catechismi majoris ascriptas (Questions about the Large Catechism)
Testi. >>> Testimoniae Scripturaer Sacrae (The testimony of the Holy Scriptures)
Fr.int. >>> Fragmentae usquae ad Deca. Symb. Or.Do. (Fragments of the Ten Commandments, Confession of faith and Sunday Prayer)
Commu. >>> Communicantes coelibes ante S. [….] examinandi (Unmarried communicants prior to the ... exam)

Post by Wolf » Tue 20. Aug 2024, 11:49
Jakob Sidler, ≈ Ottenbach 20.03.1608, Sohn von Hans, Wagner, + Ottenbach 11.10.1693
oo Ottenbach 03.02.1629 [Laut Billeter fand die Heirat in Rifferswil statt - im der EDB findet man jedoch keine Heiraten 1629 in Rifferswil / diese Heirat ist im Ehebuch Ottenbach dokumentiert.]
Vronegg Urmi, ≈ Knonau 10.11.1605, Tochter von Ulrich(?) Urmi und Margreth Zürcher, "uß der Baregk", + Ottenbach 17.12.1657

Kinder:
31.07.1631 Katharina [laut Billeter: oo 16.10.1661 Jakob Kleiner - evtl. eine Verwechslung der Heirat Jakob Kleinerin Mettmenstetten mit Verena Huber, Katharina wird im Bevölkeungsverzeichnis 1649 jedenfalls nicht mehr genannt - zwischen 1647 und 1649 verstorben?]
17.11.1633 Melchior, oo 08.01.1661 Margaretha Bickel, + 08.06.1706
06.12.1635 Hans Rudolf, ooI 28.10.1662 Margaretha Grob, + 21.12.1710 (=132-2-3)
12.11.1637 Hans, oo 21.03.1671 Margaretha Müller
10.11.1639 Verena
27.03.1642 Jakob, + 22.04.1683
12.05.1644 Anna, oo 06.12.1664 Jakob Häberling, + 13.04.1699 [Anna wird im Bevölkerungsverzeichnis 1649 nicht mehr genannt - zwischen 1647 und 1649 verstorben (das Totenbuch weist in diesem Zeitraum Lücken auf)? Auf der anderen Seite verstirbt sie laut Totenbuch 1699 im Alter von 55 Jahren, was zu einer Geburt 1644 passt.]
Translation: [Anna is no longer mentioned in the population register in 1649 - died between 1647 and 1649 (there are gaps in the register of the dead in this period)? On the other hand, according to the register of the dead, she dies in 1699 at the age of 55, which fits with a birth in 1644].
Wolf: 



Wolf: 
Urmi Marriages in the Zürich Archives:
Zurich marriage database (Knonau with gap 1584-1606):
Knonau 22.12.1560: Obschalger Jakob & Urmi Kleophea
Knonau 20.03.1608: Urmi Ulrich "uß der Baregg" viduus &                 Kueni Anna
Maschwanden 04.11.1612: Weilenmann Daniel Maschwanden             & Urmi Elisabeth Baregg
Knonau 11.02.1616: Urmi Felix "uß der Baregg" & Grob                         Adelheid
Knonau 12.01.1617: Urmi Ulrich "uß der Baregg" viduus &                 Margaretha Walder
Knonau 03.05.1626: Urmi Hans Konrad & Agnes                                 Hegetschweiler
Ottenbach 03.02.1629: Sidler Jakob Ottenbach & Urmi                         Veronika "Vronegk"; "uß der Baregk"
Knonau 11.02.1629: Urmi Hans "ußer Barregg" & Baur                         Barbara vidua
Knonau 24.06.1635: Urmi Hans Konrad "Wittlig" & Suter                 Margaretha ledig
Knonau 19.01.1642: Frick Hans Knonau & Urmi Margaretha
        "Heini Fricken" Sohn; beide ledig
        "Ueli Urmis des Wachtmeisters uß der Baregg" Tochter
Knonau 30.08.1643: Urmi Alexander & Lüssi Anna
        "Ueli Urmis sel. gewäsnen Wachtmeisters in der Baregg                     ehelich hinderlaßner Sohn" 
        "Ueli LuBis" Tochter von Zwillikon, beide ledig
Knonau 14.01.1647: Urmi Gorius & Bar Margaretha
         Dienstknecht im Hof Buch; beide noch jung und ledig
        "eines Widerteüffers Tochter ab dem Ütliberg"|
Knonau 03.03.1678: Urmi Ulrich Baregg & Vollenweider                     Regula
            Alexander Urmis sel. Sohn
            Gorius Vollenweiders Tochter von Rossau

Translation
Zurich marriage database (Knonau with gap 1584-1606):
Knonau 22.12.1560: Obschalger Jakob & Urmi Kleophea
Knonau 20.03.1608: Urmi Ulrich “uß der Baregg” viduus & Kueni Anna
Maschwanden 04.11.1612: Weilenmann Daniel Maschwanden & Urmi Elisabeth             Baregg
Knonau 11.02.1616: Urmi Felix “uß der Baregg” & Grob Adelheid
Knonau 12.01.1617: Urmi Ulrich “uß der Baregg” viduus & Margaretha Walder
Knonau 03.05.1626: Urmi Hans Konrad & Agnes Hegetschweiler
Ottenbach 03.02.1629: Sidler Jakob Ottenbach & Urmi Veronika “Vronegk”; “uß der Baregk”
Knonau 11.02.1629: Urmi Hans “ußer Barregg” & Baur Barbara vidua
Knonau 24.06.1635: Urmi Hans Konrad “Wittlig” & Suter Margaretha unmarried
Knonau 19.01.1642: Frick Hans Knonau & Urmi Margaretha
        “Heini Fricken” son; both unmarried
        “Ueli Urmis des Wachtmeisters uß der Baregg” daughter
Knonau 30.08.1643: Urmi Alexander & Lüssi Anna
        “Ueli Urmi's own westerly constable's son in the Baregg” 
        “Ueli LuBis” daughter from Zwillikon, both single
Knonau 14.01.1647: Urmi Gorius & Bar Margaretha
         Servant at Buch farm; both still young and unmarried
        “a Widerteüffers daughter from the Ütliberg"|
Knonau 03.03.1678: Urmi Ulrich Baregg & Vollenweider Regula
Alexander Urmi's own son
Gorius Vollenweider's daughter from Rossau

Related?
Elsbetha Urmi 1757 film 8014328 page 645
This is a Urmi living in Ottenbach in 1757.
Could she be related to Vronegg?


Jakob Urmi 7 June1801 Film 8126955 page 820 
could this Ottenbach person be a relative?