All we have on Katharina is her birth and marriage record. While her birth is verified as seen below, we have little on her husband or children or her death. There are two ways of looking at Katharina. Billeter says her husband is Jakob Kleiner. However there is good evidence from her marriage certificate that she married to Heinrich Huber. If so the couple lived in Aeugst am Albis. They had two children. Evidence for both marriages are seen below. Was Billeter wrong? Jakob Kleiner is NOT Katharina Sidler's husband - Billeter is wrong!
Where did they live?
Catharina and Heinrich Huber lived in Mettmenstetten, and later Urdorf:
Kent: There is a Catharina Sidler born 1631 in Ottenbach and a Catharina Sidler born 1634 in Ottenbach. It is difficult to know which one we are talking about.
Wolf: I agree with the death entry 1692 - but as it doesn't give an age it doesn't help to determine the date of birth. Only a previous death entry of either of the two "candidates" would make sure.
Hans Konrad Urmi, ≈ Knonau 28.10.1590, Sohn des Heinrich und der Cathrin Syz
oo Konau 03.05.1626
Agnes Hegetschweiler
Tochter (weitere Kinder noch nicht gesucht):
04.01.1629 Cleophea, oo 10.01.1655 Hans Jakob Huber
I searched BV Kirch censuses in Aeugst am Albis and Ottenbach have come up empty.
During their lives:
1640 In Ottenbach there are 52 adults, 42 single, 319 inhabitants, 6.1 per household or 52 homes in the community. (Ottenbach Told by Bernard Schnider and Salomon Schneider and Erika Schmid)
1689 - 1694 Hunger crisis leads to large population losses
1661 Construction of the first Ottenbach schoolhouse
1645 - 1647 Construction of a mill wheel on the Reuss river
1638 Construction of the Ottenbach rectory. (Ottenbach Municipality Website)
On 16.10.1661 3 weddings take place in Mettmenstetten ZH with family connections of the bride and groom
143) Hanß Jacob Huber, Vogt Hubers selig(en) ehl(icher) Sohn / Barbara Sÿdlerin
144) Jacob Kleiner, Oslj (Oswald) Kleiners ehl(icher) son / Cathrj Sÿdlerin [....?] Huberin, soror superioris [explanation (see below): the bride is Verena Huberin]
145) Heinj Huber, Fendrich Huber's ehl(icher) son / Cathrj Sÿdlerin (see viewtopic.php?t=34125#p128158)
I am puzzled by entry 144. https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=2027249 the following is given:
Kleiner, Jakob, married to Huber, Verena
“Osli” (Oswald) Kleiner's son
Bailiff Huber's own daughter. Her brother Hans Jakob Huber marries on the same day.
If she had Huber as her maiden name (Vogt Huber's own daughter or “soror superioris*) - what does the ‘Cathrj Sÿdlerin’ in front of her name mean? Should it be crossed out instead of underlined, because of confusion with the following entry? Or was the bride called Cathrin Sidler with an unclear reference to Huber? Could that mean “widowed Huber”?
I would read “Cathri Sydlerin vere Huberin”, i.e. “Katharina Sidler, in truth Huber”. This indicates a subsequent correction of the name.
Kind regards
Olivier
Wolf: @Walter: I had already thought of “widowed” - but didn't find a suitable marriage; doesn't have to rule it out (gap in the marriage register?) - but doesn't make it likely either.
@Olivier: so underlined, since it was corrected, but wrong at first. Sounds very plausible.
The wife we are looking for, Katharina, is the daughter of Jakob Sidler and Vronegg Urmi. Billeter married her to Jakob Kleiner - but if his bride Katharina's real name was Huber, the only remaining groom from 16.10.1661 is Heini Huber, son of Ensign Huber, whose first name is unfortunately not given. The Mettmenstetten population register could possibly provide some clarity.
Wolf: Many thanks, Walter and Olivier, for your contributions.
Addendum: Hans-Ulrich Pfister wrote to me in response to my question:
Dear Mr. Seelentag
The underlining of “Cathry Sydlerin” means that the two names have been deleted (today they would be crossed out). Katharina Sidler only belongs to the following entry. “Vere Huberin” = Verena Huber, so nothing to do with the interpretation of the first name ‘Vere’ as ‘in truth’. The married couple Jakob Kleiner and Verena Huber are listed in the Mettmenstetten population registers 1670 ff.
Yours sincerely / Hans Ulrich Pfister
In the course of further checks in this context, the following baptisms for these couples were found in Mettmenstetten:
10.08.1662 Anna “primogenita” of Heinj Huber and Cathrj Sÿdlerin
12.11.1662 Anna “primogenita” of Hanß Jogelj Huber and Barbara Sÿdlerin
14.02.1664 Hanß of Heinj Huber and Cathrj Sÿdlerin
Wolf: In the canton of Zurich alone there are 55 burghs (since before 1800) for Huber. Accordingly, it is often difficult to assign a burgh. Huber in Urdorf can therefore also be discussed here; however, the reference to Urdorf should be indicated (e.g. by a precise source reference).
Hans Jakob Huber oo 1655 Cleophea Urmi
Hans Jakob Huber, son of Heinrich, “he moved to Windisch in this 1678th year” (moved to Windisch in 1678).
oo Mettmenstetten 10.01.1655
Cleophea (“Cleve”) Urmi, ≈ Knonau 04.01.1629 as daughter of Hans Konrad Urmi and Agnes Hegetschweiler [§]
Children: (all baptized in Mettmenstetten)
Cathrina (only named in 1671, no age: possibly oo 02.02.1678) [≈ 29.11.1657]
Adelheit, 18-year-old in 1678, thus * born around 1660 [≈ 25.11.1660]
Hanß, 16-year-old in 1678, i.e. * born around 1662 [≈ 09.03.1662]
In 1665 the family moves (with the parents and the brother's family) to Ober-Urdorf - the others also stay there. Hans Jakob and Cleophea move on to Windisch in 1678.
[In the population registers 1671 and 1678 of Urdorf-Dietikon, the wife or mother is listed as Cleophea Lienckhin or Lenckin - but this is incorrect. The baptismal entries for all 3 children mentioned were found in Mettmenstetten - here the mother's name is Cleve Urmin. This is also the name in the Mettmenstetten 1655 marriage register (a marriage entry with a Cleophea Lenck is not found in the Zurich marriage database). She was baptized Cleophea on 04.01.1629 in Mettmenstetten as the daughter of Hans Kunrad Urmi and Agnes Heggentschwillerin (Hegetschweiler).
Documents related to Katharina Sidler:
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Catharina Sidler birth 31 July 1631 film 8014328 page 121 bottom right |
(Sunday) 31. Jul. [1631]
E(ltern): Jagli Sydler von Ottenbach, Vroneg Vrmin.
K(ind): Cathrin.
Z(eugen): Hans Heggetschwÿler der Jung, Thrina Steinerin, Hans Schnewlis (Tochter crossed out) Fr(au).
Tochter = daughter
 |
| 1634 baptism Cathrin Sidler 18 Dec father Hans Uli Sidler Ottenbach page 127 |
This is the other Cathrin Sidler who could be confused with Cathrin Sidler born in 1631.
@Olivier: so underlined, since it was corrected, but wrong at first. Sounds very plausible.
Wolf: The wife we are looking for, Katharina, is the daughter of Jakob Sidler and Vronegg Urmi. Billeter married her to Jakob Kleiner - but if his bride Katharina's real name was Huber, the only remaining groom from 16.10.1661 is Heini Huber, son of Ensign Huber, whose first name is unfortunately not given. The Mettmenstetten population register could possibly provide some clarity.
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Jakob Kleiner baptism Mettmenstetten or Aeugst am Albis, Zürich, Schweiz page 66, 6 Jan 1633 |
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| 1661 Marriage 16 Oct Jacob Kleiner and Katharina Sidler Mettmenstetten page 19 |
Wolf:
On 16 October 1661 3 weddings take place in Mettmenstetten ZH with family connections of the bride and groom:
143) Hanß Jacob Huber, Vogt Huber's blessed son / Barbara Sÿdlerin
144) Jacob Kleiner, Oslj (Oswald) Kleiner's ehl(icher) son / Cathrj Sÿdlerin [....?] Huberin, soror superioris
145) Heinj Huber, Fendrich Huber's ehl(icher) son / Cathrj Sÿdlerin (the suffix in is added to denote feminine.)
I am puzzled by entry 144. https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=2027249 the following is given:
Kleiner, Jakob, married to Huber, Verena
“Osli” (Oswald) Kleiner's son
Bailiff Huber's own daughter. Her brother Hans Jakob Huber marries on the same day.
If she had Huber as her maiden name (Vogt Huber's own daughter or “soror superioris*) - what does the ‘Cathrj Sÿdlerin’ in front of her name mean? Should it be crossed out instead of underlined, because of confusion with the following entry? Or was the bride called Cathrin Sidler with an unclear reference to Huber?)
Note: Jakob's father, Oswald was a Kirchenmeyer, (administrator of church farm property). His wife is Dorothea Funk. Married 26 Feb 1623, Mettmenstetten, ZH. He died 29 April 1666.
Note: Jakob's father, Oswald was a Kirchenmeyer, (administrator of church farm property). His wife is Dorothea Funk. Married 26 Feb 1623, Mettmenstetten, ZH. He died 29 April 1666.
Question: Or was the bride called Cathrin Sidler with an unclear reference to Huber?
Walter: Could that mean “verw[itwete] Huberin”?
Oliver: I would read “Cathri Sydlerin vere Huberin”, i.e. “Katharina Sidler, in truth Huber”. This indicates a subsequent correction of the name.
Wolf: @Walter: I had already thought of “widowed” - but didn't find a suitable marriage; doesn't have to rule it out (gap in the marriage register?) - but doesn't make it likely either.@Olivier: so underlined, since it was corrected, but wrong at first. Sounds very plausible.
Wolf: The wife we are looking for, Katharina, is the daughter of Jakob Sidler and Vronegg Urmi. Billeter married her to Jakob Kleiner - but if his bride Katharina's real name was Huber, the only remaining groom from 16.10.1661 is Heini Huber, son of Ensign Huber, whose first name is unfortunately not given. The Mettmenstetten population register could possibly provide some clarity.
Wolf: Olivier has posted a plausible interpretation of the marriage entry 144: the bride was not a Cathrin Sidler but (corrected) a Cathrin Huber … so Jacob Kleiner is not Cathrin Sidler's husband! Instead "your" Cathrin Sidler got married to Heini Huber (entry 145) if we stick to the date.
Wolf: Heinrich Huber 9SSX-ZKX and Katharina Sidler married 16 October 1661. The Aeugst am Albis have been searched and two children from this marriage were found as seen below. The Katharina Sidler on FS has her birth in 1634 not 1631, different parents etc. The FS entry also has the wrong father for Heinrich based on the translation of the marriage certificate above.Kent: FS has Katharina born 1634 and married 16 October 1661 and the couple have two children. They have Katharina and Heinrich bearing children in Aeugst am Albis. FS has no birth, or death for her husband Heinrich, just their marriage. Their second child Hans has a birth witness named Jacob Kleiner. BV's have been searched in Ottenbach and Mettmenstetten (1670) (lots of Kleiner names) and Aeugst am Albis. No Katharina.
Wolf:
Kent: I searched 12 BV's in Ottenbach, Mettmenstetten and Aeugst without finding a Heinrich and Catharina. Went to "search records" tab and looked for Catharina Sidler and found one in Urdorf. I thought, unusual but I've looked everywhere else. Why not? Went to the BV for 1678. Bingo. Her first two births match up. This is her. How they wandered from Ottenbach, to Mettmenstetten and finally to Urdorf is a mystery but here she is. The handwriting is beautiful, I would say perfect! 😎 What a journey this has been!!!
Wolf:
I have now summarized the problem on Geneal-Forum - with snippets of all relevant documents. Of Cleophea Urmi's baptism 1629 I only had the low resolution version. It would be nice if you could send me film 008014288 / page 86 in original resolution, to replace what we have online now.
This is proving that the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis is wrong: Hans Jakob Huber's wife is Cleophea Urmi - not Lenk (or similar).Hans Jakob Huber oo 1655 Cleophea Urmi
Post by Wolf » Thu 5. Sep 2024, 14:55
Hans Jakob Huber, Sohn des Heinrich, "dieser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr gen Windisch zogen" (1678 nach Windisch verzogen).
oo Mettmenstetten 10.01.1655
Cleophea ("Cleve") Urmi, ≈ Knonau 04.01.1629 als Tochter des Hans Konrad Urmi und der Agnes Hegetschweiler [§]
Kinder: (alle in Mettmenstetten getauft)
Cathrina (nur 1671 genannt, ohne Alter: evtl. oo 02.02.1678) [≈ 29.11.1657]
Adelheit, 18-jährig in 1678, also * um 1660 geboren [≈ 25.11.1660]
Hanß, 16-jährig in 1678, also * um 1662 geboren [≈ 09.03.1662]
1665 zieht die Familie (mit den Eltern und der Familie des Bruders) nach Ober-Urdorf - die Anderen bleiben auch dort. Hans Jakob und Cleophea ziehen 1678 nach Windisch weiter.
[§] In den Bevölkerungsverzeichnissen 1671 bzw. 1678 von Urdorf-Dietikon wird die Ehefrau bzw. Mutter mit Cleophea Lienckhin bzw. Lenckin geführt - dies ist jedoch falsch. Zu allen 3 genannten Kindern wurden die Taufeinträge in Mettmenstetten gefunden - hier heisst die Mutter Cleve Urmin. Das ist auch der Name im Ehebuch Mettmenstetten 1655 (einen Eheeintrag mit einer Cleophea Lenck findet sich nicht in der Zürcher Ehedatenbank). Am 04.01.1629 war sie in Mettmenstetten als Tochter des Hans Kunrad Urmi und der Agnes Heggentschwillerin (Hegetschweiler) auf den Namen Cleophea getauft worden.
Wolf:
We obviously have connections for Sidler between Ottenbach and Mettmenstetten. The connection to Urdorf might(!) be the husband: Huber is one of the most common names in German speaking regions – no surprise they also held pre-1800 citizenship in Urdorf.
Catalogus - 1 - Der Kirchen und Gemeinds-genoßen zu OberUrdorfCatalogue oft the parish and community members in Oberurdorf
II Heinrich Huber, Anna Oberdörfferin (https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/detail.aspx?ID=2026999)
Kinder:
25 Hanß, in der Pfalz (Palatinate)
Söhn in der Ehe (married sons):
a. Hanß Jagli Huber, Cleophea Lenckin (no corresponding marriage entry in EDB)
Kinder:
18 Adelheit
16 Hanß (diser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr ... zogen (moved somewhere?)
b. Heinrich Huber, Catharina Sydlerin
Kinder:
16 Anna (bapt. 10.08.1662)
14 Hanß (bapt. 14.02.1664)
12 Heinrich
3 Cathrindli
½ Magdalendli
The first two names match with the baptisms above.Wolf: I have now published the Huber data on Geneal-Forum.
Whilst writing this up I had another look at the BV page - and came to another conclusion: "diser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr ... zogen" doesn't refer to Hans - but his father Hans Jagli - and if I read/interpret this correctly, Hans Jagli (better: he and his family) had moved to Urdorf from Windisch, (today) canton Aargau. In this case the parents may have married in Aargau - which would explain why there is no entry in EDB. See Hans Jakob Huber oo (vor 1660) Cleophea Lenk.
Did Katharina marry to Heinrich Huber?
@Walter: I had already thought of “widowed” - but didn't find a suitable marriage; doesn't have to rule it out (gap in the marriage register?) - but doesn't make it likely either.
@Olivier: so underlined, since it was corrected, but wrong at first. Sounds very plausible.
Wolf: The wife we are looking for, Katharina, is the daughter of Jakob Sidler and Vronegg Urmi. Billeter married her to Jakob Kleiner - but if his bride Katharina's real name was Huber, the only remaining groom from 16 October 1661 is Heini Huber, son of Ensign Huber, whose first name is unfortunately not given. The Mettmenstetten population register could possibly provide some clarity.
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| 1666 Osli Kleiner death 29 Apr bur 1 May Aeugst ZH film 008014293 page 208 |
Wolf:
Places of residence given are "Obermet" and "Undermet" - which I assume to stand for Obermettmenstetten and Undermettmenstetten - why would they attend Aeugst am Albis - by tradition (families from there)?In the course of further checks in this connection, the following baptisms of these couples were found in Mettmenstetten:
10.08.1662 Anna “primogenita” of Heinj Huber and Cathrj Sÿdlerin ("primogenita" = firstborn.)
12.11.1662 Anna “primogenita” of Hanß Jogelj Huber and Barbara Sÿdlerin ("primogenita" = firstborn.)
14.02.1664 Hanß of Heinj Huber and Cathrj Sÿdlerin
Note: The parish of Aeugst am Albis was established in 1667. Prior to 1667, the villages of Aeugst and Wengi belonged to the parish of Mettmenstetten, |
| 1662 Anna Huber bap Heinr Huber and Kathar Sydler Mettmenstetten Aeugst, Zürich, Schweiz10 August ZH film 008014293. page 98 |
Anna bapt. 10.08.1662 was ("primogenita" = firstborn.)
Down the page there is also an Anna bapt. 12.11.1662 - also "primogenita" = firstborn
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| 1664 Hanss Huber bap Heini father Cathri Sydler mother 14 Feb Mettmenstetten Aeugst, Zürich, Schweiz ZH film 008014293 page 100 Jakob Kleiner witness |
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| 1678 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis Dietikon-Urdorf title page film 008126303 page 298 |
Wolf: Now for the text (page 505): the first para is written in Greek letters – at least most of it (some are looking unfamiliar to me – but that could just be the handwriting). I can still recite the first lines of Homer's Odyssey – but my Greek is too rusted by now to attempt a translation 😉.
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| 1671 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis for Urdorf film 007765846 page 239 |
I have now summarized the problem on Geneal-Forum - with snippets of all relevant documents. Of Cleophea Urmi's baptism 1629 I only had the low resolution version. It would be nice if you could send me film 008014288 / page 86 in original resolution, to replace what we have online now.
This is proving that the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis is wrong: Hans Jakob Huber's wife is Cleophea Urmi - not Lenk (or similar).
Post by Wolf » Thu 5. Sep 2024, 14:55
Hans Jakob Huber, Sohn des Heinrich, "dieser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr gen Windisch zogen" (1678 nach Windisch verzogen).
oo Mettmenstetten 10.01.1655
Cleophea ("Cleve") Urmi, ≈ Knonau 04.01.1629 als Tochter des Hans Konrad Urmi und der Agnes Hegetschweiler [§]
Kinder: (alle in Mettmenstetten getauft)
Cathrina (nur 1671 genannt, ohne Alter: evtl. oo 02.02.1678) [≈ 29.11.1657]
Adelheit, 18-jährig in 1678, also * um 1660 geboren [≈ 25.11.1660]
Hanß, 16-jährig in 1678, also * um 1662 geboren [≈ 09.03.1662]
1665 zieht die Familie (mit den Eltern und der Familie des Bruders) nach Ober-Urdorf - die Anderen bleiben auch dort. Hans Jakob und Cleophea ziehen 1678 nach Windisch weiter.
[§] In den Bevölkerungsverzeichnissen 1671 bzw. 1678 von Urdorf-Dietikon wird die Ehefrau bzw. Mutter mit Cleophea Lienckhin bzw. Lenckin geführt - dies ist jedoch falsch. Zu allen 3 genannten Kindern wurden die Taufeinträge in Mettmenstetten gefunden - hier heisst die Mutter Cleve Urmin. Das ist auch der Name im Ehebuch Mettmenstetten 1655 (einen Eheeintrag mit einer Cleophea Lenck findet sich nicht in der Zürcher Ehedatenbank). Am 04.01.1629 war sie in Mettmenstetten als Tochter des Hans Kunrad Urmi und der Agnes Heggentschwillerin (Hegetschweiler) auf den Namen Cleophea getauft worden.
Wolf:
The sentence to the left states Seind auch zue Mettmenstädten getauft worden (have been baptised in Mettmenstetten) - applies to Anna and Hans (which we knew already). The statement, that they moved from Mettmenstetten to Urdorf in 1665 applies to all 3 families.
Wolf:
Jakob Urmi's wife: The first two images confirm my suspicion, however - the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis (mother Cleophea Lenk or Lienk) is not correct: the mother is Cleve Urmi! This might be forgivable: the family moved to Urdorf in 1665 and moved away again to Windisch in 1678; Hans Jakob's wife was not really known, possibly Lenk (or similar) was used as nickname. Whilst I have never heard this before - Cleve might be an abbreviation for Cleophea
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| 1678 Heinrich Huber, Catharina Sidler in Urdorf film 008126303 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis |
We obviously have connections for Sidler between Ottenbach and Mettmenstetten. The connection to Urdorf might(!) be the husband: Huber is one of the most common names in German speaking regions – no surprise they also held pre-1800 citizenship in Urdorf.
Catalogus - 1 - Der Kirchen und Gemeinds-genoßen zu OberUrdorfCatalogue oft the parish and community members in Oberurdorf
II Heinrich Huber, Anna Oberdörfferin (https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/detail.aspx?ID=2026999)
Kinder:
25 Hanß, in der Pfalz (Palatinate)
Söhn in der Ehe (married sons):
a. Hanß Jagli Huber, Cleophea Lenckin (no corresponding marriage entry in EDB)
Kinder:
18 Adelheit
16 Hanß (diser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr ... zogen (moved somewhere?)
b. Heinrich Huber, Catharina Sydlerin
Kinder:
16 Anna (bapt. 10.08.1662)
14 Hanß (bapt. 14.02.1664)
12 Heinrich
3 Cathrindli
½ Magdalendli
The first two names match with the baptisms above.
Whilst writing this up I had another look at the BV page - and came to another conclusion: "diser ist in disem 1678.ten Jahr ... zogen" doesn't refer to Hans - but his father Hans Jagli - and if I read/interpret this correctly, Hans Jagli (better: he and his family) had moved to Urdorf from Windisch, (today) canton Aargau. In this case the parents may have married in Aargau - which would explain why there is no entry in EDB. See Hans Jakob Huber oo (vor 1660) Cleophea Lenk.
Scripture Acts 20:28
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Wolf:
Catharina Sidlerin, Heinrich Huber deß heüw-baur(en) ehel. gl. Haußfr(auw) starb an dem Stich, lag nur 4 (tag?). Obijt 15. Jan. [1692]
I am not absolutely sure about the "heüw-baur(en)": I don't feel that haymaker would be a proper translation - he would be a farmer producing (mainly) hay.
"ehel. gl. Haußfr(auw)": his married beloved housewife.
"starb an dem Stich, lag nur 4 (tag?)": died from Pleuritis after being sick for 4 days.
Wolf: I had suggested that Cathrin (born 1631 to Jakob and Vronegg Urmi) might have died between 1647 and 1649.
 |
| 1692 Catharina Sidler burial 15 Jan Urdorf-Dietikon page 254 |
Catharina Sidlerin, Heinrich Huber deß heüw-baur(en) ehel. gl. Haußfr(auw) starb an dem Stich, lag nur 4 (tag?). Obijt 15. Jan. [1692]
I am not absolutely sure about the "heüw-baur(en)": I don't feel that haymaker would be a proper translation - he would be a farmer producing (mainly) hay.
"ehel. gl. Haußfr(auw)": his married beloved housewife.
"starb an dem Stich, lag nur 4 (tag?)": died from Pleuritis after being sick for 4 days.
 |
| 1661 Marriage Jacob Kleiner and Katharina Sidler Mettmenstetten page 19. by Billeter |