Where did Katharina Kleiner come from? The Swiss Surname
index says early Kleiner's came from Maschwanden. The village is just south of
Ottenbach and may be a likely spot. The other Kleiner families in Ottenbach
came from Mettmenstetten. This village is 4 miles south and a little east of
Ottenbach. Katharina married Johannes Sidler and together they had eleven
children. Her first five children lived to adulthood which is unusual. Her
daughter Anna's first five children died in infancy.What happened to her children?
Hans Sidler b 1606-1682 married Adelheid Lichtin, had 2 children one of whom married, Hans lived to be 75 years 11 months 16 days
Jakob Sidler b1608-1693
Ludwig Sidler b 1610-1688 married Elsbeth Schneebeli and Verena Grob, 11 children with first wife, 5 children married, lived to be 77 years 11 months 29 days
Ludwig Sidler b 1610-1688 married Elsbeth Schneebeli and Verena Grob, 11 children with first wife, 5 children married, lived to be 77 years 11 months 29 days
Rudolf Sidler b 1612-1675 married Veronica Frey, 4 children, 3 married, large posterity, lived 63 years 7 months 12 days
Fridle Sidler b 1613-1666 married a Lunern Obfelden girl named Barbara Stähli on 12 October 1641. They had 10 children, 7 married, large posterity lived to be 52 years, 1 month 26 days.
Hans Heinrich Sidler b 1615 infant death
Anna Sidler b 1617-1665 her mother Katharina died when Anna was 12 years old, married Jakob Bär, according to FS has 15 children (unverified), her first 5 children died in infancy, some twins, lived 47 years 10 months 13 days.
Verena Sidler b 1619 infant death
Othmar Sidler b 1621 infant death
Barbara Sidler b 1623-1623 lived 3 months
Walthar Sidler b 1625-1628 lived 3 years
Hans Heinrich Sidler b 1615 infant death
Anna Sidler b 1617-1665 her mother Katharina died when Anna was 12 years old, married Jakob Bär, according to FS has 15 children (unverified), her first 5 children died in infancy, some twins, lived 47 years 10 months 13 days.
Verena Sidler b 1619 infant death
Othmar Sidler b 1621 infant death
Barbara Sidler b 1623-1623 lived 3 months
Walthar Sidler b 1625-1628 lived 3 years
Who were Katharina's Ottenbach pastors?
1557. Johannes Blunschli, dean of the chapter since 1571, died 1604.
1604. Beatus Eggstein. He drowned while bathing in the Reuss in 1609.
1609. Joshua Kessler, Dean of the Chapter since 1618. Died 1636.
Death:
Katharina died 3 November 1627 in Ottenbach. Her husband,
Johannes, is listed on her death record as noted by her Ottenbach Parish
Pastor, Joshua Kessler. Her death
record says she was pregnant, suddenly attached by birth aches, recovered and suddenly
died. Johannes outlived Katharina.
During their lifetime:
During their lifetime:
1620 Kleinhanserchtold von Wasterkingen showed scant respect for the authorities, wanting them to be struck by lightning. Jorg Haupt from Steinmauer was even more explicit in 1650. He swore that lighting should strike the authorities, and "by a thousand sacraments and the sacrament of blood, he wanted thunder and hail to strike the Ottenbach (the local prison). Unsurprisingly, this insubordinate subject found himself in court. (Dealings with God: From Blasphemers in Early Modern Zurich to a Cultural History of Religiousness By Prof Dr Francisca Loetz)
Descendants see ancestors of Johannes Sidler (1809-1873)
[Two Johannes and Hans Sidler were baptized in Ottenbach in 1583: Jacob's Joannes on 24.02.1583 and Hans Sidler's Joannes on 22.09.1583. As no bride's parents are mentioned in the marriage entries in Ottenbach at this time, it is not trivial to assign them. The baptismal entry for Fridli Sidler dated 21.11.1613 provides clarity here: the godmother is “Barbel Sigeristin deß Bruders Frouw”. The only chronologically matching marriage of a Barbara Sigrist (or similar) in the Zurich marriage database is that of 01.05.1608 in Ottenbach with Niklaus Sidler; a pair of brothers Niklaus and Johannes Sidler only exist as sons of Jakob Sidler. ATTENTION: Billeter has assigned the “wrong” Joannes as the husband of Katharina Kleiner - an error that is occasionally also passed on on the Internet.
[In the baptism entry, her date of death is also given as “obiit”. The witnesses are Jagli Stelin gnt Fluri zu Wolsen and Barbel Stelin Heini Rutschen's daughter. In this context it is interesting to note that a Jakob Stehli, “Heini Rutschen Sun” marries Anna Hurter of Zwillikon on 18.02.1623 in Ottenbach. A Barbara Stehli, “Heini” Stehli's daughter from Wolsen, marries Rudolf Buchmann on 29.09.1624 in Mettmenstetten. The two witnesses to the baptism must therefore have been siblings.
Translation:
132=144) Hans Sidler oo Katharina Kleiner
Post by Wolf “ Fri 9 Aug 2024, 22:14
Hans Sidler, ≈ Ottenbach 24.02.1583 [§], son of Jakob, + after 1628
oo (where / when ? - no entry found in the marriage database)
Katharina Kleiner, * 1584, + 03.11.1628
Ottenbach-Death-1628-Kleiner-Cathrin.jpg
[see also the complete page]
Cathrin Kleiner, Hans Sÿdlers Hußfrouw was pregnant, once attacked by Kindsween. gnäsen, und eins wägs gstorben, Samstag 3. Nov (1628). (Cathrin Kleiner, Hans Sÿdler's wife was pregnant, once attacked by labor pains,. died, and died one day, Saturday November 3rd (1628))
For the interpretation of this death entry, see also here [the two original entries below have been replaced by a screenshot].
Children: all ≈ in Ottenbach
08.07.1606 Hans, oo Adelheid Lichti (+ before 1678), + Ottenbach 24.06.1682
20.03.1608 Jakob, oo 03.02.1629 Vronegg Urmi (+ 17.12.1657), + Ottenbach 11.10.1693 (=132-2) According to his baptismal entry, his parents live “in the Ziegel Hus”.
13.02.1610 Ludwig, ooI Elsbeth Schneebeli (+ 12.04.1665), ooII 28.04.1674 Verena Grob (* Nov. 1612, + after 1678), + Ottenbach 11.01.1688 (=66)
16.02.1612 Rudolf, oo Veronica Frey, + Ottenbach 28.09.1675 (=72)
21.11.1613 Fridli [§], oo 12.10.1641 Barbara Stehli (+ 1674), + Ottenbach 16.01.1666 (=132-5)
04.06.1615 Hans Heinrich
29.05.1617 Anna, oo 04.08.1646 Hans Jakob Bär, + Ottenbach 11.04.1665
13.06.1619 Verena
02.04.1621 Othmar
23.02.1623 Barbara [§§], + 26.05.1623 (noted in the baptismal entry)
08.03.1625 Walther, + 06.01.1628 (noted in the baptismal entry)
Documents related to Katharina Kleiner:
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Katharina Kleiner death Ottenbach 3 November 1628 film 8014328 page 177
|
Wolf:
Transcription: Cathrin Kleiner, Hans Sÿdlers Hußfrouw war schwanger, einsmals von Kindsween überfallen. gnäsen, und eins wägs gstorben, Samstag 3. Noveb (1627).
Translation: Cathrin Kleiner, Hans Sÿdlers Housewife was pregnant, once attacked by labor pains, recovered, and died on Saturday 3rd November (1627).
Peter Translation of Katharina Kleiner's death record:
war schwanger, - was pregnant
eins? mals von Kindswehen überfallen - suddenly attacked by birth aches or labor pains
gnäsen (genesen) - recovered
und eins? wägs gestorben - and suddenly died.
Result:
Cathrin Kleiner was pregnant, was first attacked by labor pains, recovered, but died anyway.
Wolf:
Correction:
You had posted this page as burial in 1627 - as there is no year mentioned on the page itself, this could not be checked. In another context in the meantime the preceeding page has been posted - indicating that Catharina Kleiner actually died or was buried on 03.11.1628. I have corrected this on 132=144) Hans Sidler oo Katharina Kleiner.
Note: If Katharina was born in 1584 she lived about 43 years 9 months. We assume the child she held inside her, at her death, died without record.